Muscles, strength and other common health stuff....

[streethockeygoalie]

Originally Posted by mont

One can easily have strength without a ripped and pumped body. Just check some professional powerlifters who's "job" is lifting not looking good. They are unbelievably strong, but dont look very appealing. Nor are they trying too. Many of them eat all the calories possible but aren't concerned about what types of calories, fats, and carbs - only that they can get the weight up. Bodybuilders on the other hand, are EXTREMELY careful about how, when, and what they eat - they eat food for function not because it "tastes good."

That's completely and utterly incorrect. A powerlifter's diet is just as important -- if not more important -- than a bodybuilder's diet. Do you think squatting over half a ton is easy on the body? How about deadlifting 900lbs? Ask Gene Rychlak if he became the first man (and currently the only man) to benchpress over 1,000lbs by having a crappy (or non-existant) diet. Powerlifting is incredibly taxing on the body, and without proper diet, you'll get NOWHERE.

Originally Posted by mont

Seems good. I notice you are focusing on upper body alone though. But the key is not to simply go through the motions and to make sure you hit "3 sets of 10" without other parameters (not saying you do - I just know few people do this correctly). On some days go lighter with more reps to FAILURE.
On other days go heavy (important you increase slightly from your last time if possible) but fewer reps - say 6 - to FAILURE. Different techniques will have different effects on different people but this is a good approach because you must have an goal set each week with some degree of IMPROVEMENT.

Training to failure on every set of every exercise every time you go to gym is definitely not a good thing. Training to failure has its place, but doing it all the time will probably reduce your gains and lead to overtraining (where you'll see no gains, or perhaps a reduction in your performance).

Originally Posted by mont

BTW folks, one of the main reasons for adding the bran to your shakes is to keep yourself regular. All that protein will plug you up if you dont. And you dont want to walk around with a bloated belly now do you?

As far as I'm aware, the amount of protein you consume has little to do with how regular you are. I'd be more concerned with drinking enough water so you don't screw up your kidneys.

Originally Posted by Fade2Black

Upperbody:
-Pullups
-Flat bench
-Incline Bech
-Flyes
-Bent Over Barbell Rows
-Dumbell Curls
-Low vol. Core work and Stretching

Where's the shoulder work...? Granted the bench and rowing will work the shoulders, but he should at least have some sort of overhead press in there.

Originally Posted by Fade2Black

Lowerbody:
-Squats
-Seated Hamstring Curls or Stiff Leg Deadlifts
-Cable Pushdowns
-Seated Calf Raises
-Stretching and low vol core work

I'd throw some (regular) deadlifts somewhere in his workout. An excellent exercise for the whole body (especially the posterior chain). And if you're going to do only one tricep exercise, I'd drop the pushdowns for CGBP or dips, or at the very least lying tricep extensions.


Signed,
streethockeygoalie's brother

[Fade2Black]

Originally Posted by streethockeygoalie

That's completely and utterly incorrect. A powerlifter's diet is just as important -- if not more important -- than a bodybuilder's diet. Do you think squatting over half a ton is easy on the body? How about deadlifting 900lbs? Ask Gene Rychlak if he became the first man (and currently the only man) to benchpress over 1,000lbs by having a crappy (or non-existant) diet. Powerlifting is incredibly taxing on the body, and without proper diet, you'll get NOWHERE.

Yeah.....sure

"I haven't eaten a vegetable in years. I eat very little protein. Most of my meals come from McDonalds. Really, I'm like that guy from Supersize Me." -- Dave Tate

"The cleanest eating people I know are also some of the weakest." -- Dave Tate

Take a look at the man's diet and tell me he takes nutrition seriously. Guy eats effing pop tarts and snickers.

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle....le=06-042-diet

Dave is not the exception to the rule either. I know countless other powerlifters who eat like that. While there are powerlifters and strongmen who eat cleanly they are the clear minority. I can count the number of the proffesional powerlifters on one hand and still have fingers left over.

Training to failure has its place, but doing it all the time will probably reduce your gains and lead to overtraining (where you'll see no gains, or perhaps a reduction in your performance).

Which is why periodization is stressed for people who do high volume workouts and/or failure sets. Overtraining is largely CNS and endocrine system related. While overuse is muscular.

Where's the shoulder work...? Granted the bench and rowing will work the shoulders, but he should at least have some sort of overhead press in there.

Agreed. A mere laps in judgement. If you wanted to get real technical you could also suggest laterals (or side presses) as few people have the genetic propensity to build great, or even well developed, shoulders off of overhead presses alone.

I'd throw some (regular) deadlifts somewhere in his workout. An excellent exercise for the whole body (especially the posterior chain).

Would probably be too much deadlifting directly after (or on the same day) as full squats. It is far too much fatigue for the CNS and you could expect burnout extremely quickly. Due to the lower load requirement for SLDLs it would be more profitiable for him to do those. Especially since they still stress the posterior chain.

And if you're going to do only one tricep exercise, I'd drop the pushdowns for CGBP or dips, or at the very least lying tricep extensions.

Being a fan of weighted dips and chins I would have suggested dips but I doubt he has the strength to do a worthwhile set of them. It would be best to build up the strength in the tris via other exercises, CGBP is a great exercise but when done with improper form can lead to injuries. Many people chose a grip too close as the name Close Grip Bench Press is actually a misnomer. Proper form is to have the hands at shoulder width but the elbows come inwards (tucked to the body) instead of flared out with a normal bench. A grip that is too close (which is common practice for most uninformed and untrained individuals) puts far too much stress on the wrists.

You have to remember he's a beginner. While compound exercises are far more benefial than isolations if he's unaware of proper form they can lead to injury. You must ease a new lifter into workouts.

[Fade2Black]

A proper way to build an Upper/Lower split would probably be something along the line of Joe DeFranco's Westside for Skinny Bastards.

http://www.defrancostraining.com/art...s_westside.htm

Some of the lifts are complicated. Superb form should be stressed before weight is added.

Exercise reference list:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/slide...id=16&subId=37

Chest:
Barbell Bench Press
Decline Barbell bench Press
Incline Barbell Bench Press
Dumbbell Bench Press
Decline Dumbbell Bench Press
Dumbbell Incline Bench Press
Dumbbell Pullovers
Dumbbell Flyes

Back:
Barbell Dead Lifts
Cleans
Chin-up
Pull-up
Behind The Neck Pull-up
Lat Pulldown
Dumbbell Rows
Barbell Bent-Over Row

Thighs:
Barbell Back Squat
Barbell Front Squat
Barbell Lunge
45º Leg Press
Hack Squat
Straight-Leg Dead Lift I DO NOT LIKE THE FORM OF THIS PARTICULAR VIDEO. HE ROUNDS HIS BACK. THE LIFT SHOULD STOP ONCE THE BACK IS PARALLEL TO THE FLOOR
Good Morning
Glute/Ham Raise
Lying Leg Curl
Seated Leg Curl
Standing Leg Curl

Deltoids:
Barbell Shoulder Press
Military Press
Dumbbell Shoulder Press
Dumbell Lateral Raise
Push Press

Biceps:
Barbell Curls
Cable Curl
Dumbbell Curl
Dumbbell Incline Curl
Machine Curl

Triceps:
Close-Grip Bench Press
Lying French Press
Barbell Overhead Extensions
Dumbbell Overhead Extensions
Bench Dips
Tricep Dips
Reverse-Grip Bench Press

Forearms:
Hammer Curls
Reverse Wrist Curl
Wrist Curl

Abs:
Crunch
Knee Raises
Twisting Crunch

Calves:
Barbell Calf Raises
Standing Calf Raises
Calf Press
Seated Calf Raises

Trapezius:
Barbell Shrug
Trap bar Shrug
Dumbbell Shrug

Olympic Lifts:
Clean and Jerk
High Pulls
Split Jerk
Snatch
Overhead Squat
Hang Cleans
Hang Jump Shrug
Cleans

[mont]

Originally Posted by streethockeygoalie's BROTHER

That's completely and utterly incorrect.

Hello?

Wrong, because it is common knowledge even now and absolutely historically, where there is a difference between what is required to be a BODY - BUILDER and POWER LIFTER. And yes, you can find individual examples of the other too where some powerlifters are actually dropping the spare tire - but not the MAJORITY. We are not discussing INDIVIDUALS - we are generalising two applications - READ! My comments were 110% accurate. You need to do more reading on this thread - and what it is about - and to learn the differences between the two genre's which are very different as a rule. Anyone that tries to imply that BODY-BUILDING and POWER-LIFTING use the same application of diet (and training too), needs to examine themselves. I am generalising to make a point to explain the differences to someone within the confines of a post. You are coming in with a microscope - hey - I can do that too, if I felt it would have been relevant to the discussion at hand but it isn't.!

Since you enjoy attacking my comments (and others) in a very childish manner perhaps you would understand my advice for adding bran to the protein shakes in this way?

Protein and Constipation

Protein can tend to be constipating for many reasons. Unlike fruits or vegetables, it has no roughage to mop up the waste material and keep it moving. The slow-moving protein food should always be eaten with vegetables to help move it along through the digestive process. Just like your car cannot operate without gas, your colon cannot operate without roughage.

(So please people, drink lots of water as I and others have mentioned several times - but supplement that with bran (I suggest bran as it is easy to add to the shake). If you dont believe me or "StreetHockeys brother" perhaps the above will be convincing enough. )

If you wish to write 500 pages explaining the pluses and minus to every approach and body type, every diet and every biological counterbalance between the different food sources, every explanation between what lifting approach is presumably better than the other, and every debate to the contrary (of which there are THOUSANDS), be my guest.

Get on the thread and go for it! I wont make this into an infinite loop, thats for sure.

I know what has worked for me by example and if you are not impressed go ahead and post away with your own advice - whats stopping you? Be prepared to write for weeks though - someone might come on and pick apart your advice simply because in the world of bodybuilding, there is ALWAYS ANOTHER OPINION. Be very careful when making comments such as, "utterly and completely incorrect."

Kudos to Fade and the others who have put forth IN MY OPINION quality tips for the boys at hand. There rarely is a scientific inarguable fact. It's more like this my friend, if it works - it works - if it doesnt, it doesnt. I express what works for me, because it got results as prescribed. I also chose to believe the opinions of those I chose to believe - although the varying ideas of right and wrong are staggering.

You are welcome to your beliefs but need to consider your approach in expressing them.

"Peace, love and no more catabolic states."

[D Beaupre]

mont, you mentioned earlier some compound lifts you do that work abs; what are some of those?

[Fade2Black]

Originally Posted by D Beaupre

mont, you mentioned earlier some compound lifts you do that work abs; what are some of those?

Deadlift
Squats
Front Squats
Overhead Squat
Barbell Rows
Cleans
Snatches
Military Press
Push Press
Good Mornings

[mont]

BTW, for those curious, Gene Rychlak is a powerlifting machine. First man to ever do 1000+. Unbelievable. Here's a link to a pic of him.

Gene Rychlak

The man is a pinnacle of the sport. I still wouldnt recommend HIS diet habits for the topic of this particular thread - losing fat and building lean muscle.

And if you look here:
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:...&client=safari

(scroll down to the comments about the pudding, fried chicken and soda)

you can see that quite often than not, "anything goes" for the powerlifter as the diet is applied for a different purpose than the bodybuilder.

Don,
Fade is pointing out that by doing any of these compound excercises they all indirectly work the abs as well (I realise of course you know that). For me personally, I spend less focus on the leg extension/squats as some due to my knee injury. But I am a big fan of the deadlift, barbell rows, and good mornings. All of these are excellent for ab stimulation and a lot of other things too Good you pointed this out - a lot of people think it always has to be a kind of sit-up to target the abs but of course that is not the case.

[Fade2Black]

Originally Posted by mont

BTW, for those curious, Gene Rychlak is a powerlifting machine. First man to ever do 1000+. Unbelievable. Here's a link to a pic of him.

Gene Rychlak

The man is a pinnacle of the sport. I still wouldnt recommend HIS diet habits for the topic of this particular thread - losing fat and building lean muscle.

And if you look here:
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:...&client=safari

(scroll down to the comments about the pudding, fried chicken and soda)

you can see that quite often than not, "anything goes" for the powerlifter as the diet is applied for a different purpose than the bodybuilder.

A lot of powelifters I know follow the "see food diet" which is basically, "you see food and you eat it." It's not uncommon for an extra large pizza to be a post workout meal. Hell, add a bag of chips and a 2L bottle of Pepsi and it's one of my friend's meals

Here's a pic of Andy Bolton. The man set the WR for deadlift at 971 and is thought of by many to be the first man who will deadlift 1,000. As you can see, his physique is not what one would call the best.

[dr hook]

While powerlifters don't look all that cut, pound for pound they can not be matched in terms of strength. But don't think that you can't be strong and ripped either. Look at the competitors in the World's Strongest Man. 30 years ago it was about mass and sheer strength. Now its about total physical perfection. You have guys like Sven Carrelson, Marnus Ver Magnuson. Incredibly strong, and in total shape both muscular and cardo wise as well. And when it comes to the deadlifts or squats, many of these guys flirt with the W.R.'s
If a guy sets a record in a dead lift I am not impressed, as its once dicipline. When you can excell in the 3 big lifts, then I am impressed, Its about the total package, and it takes a hell of a lot more work to be the total package then to excel in one dicipline.

Now for diets, its true most powerlifters eat what they want. They are so big, that they need a lot of calories to maintain there sheer size and strength. And weather its fat or muscle, the bigger you are the stronger you are, period.
I know for a fact that my uncle, a world champion powerlifter, and myself, would load up with pizza and beer before a competition. You hit your plateau and can't obtain anymore strength by weight training, but for some reason unknown to me, packing on an extra 20 pounds of body fat can mean an extra 5-10 pounds in a lift. And sometimes, 5-10 pounds can win you a title.

[D Beaupre]

Originally Posted by Fade2Black

Deadlift
Squats
Front Squats
Overhead Squat
Barbell Rows
Cleans
Snatches
Military Press
Push Press
Good Mornings

It seems to me that most of these barely work abs at all aside from a slight stablizing function. And though you're doubtless right, I have a hard time seeing how barbell rows or deadlifts work abs at all.

Can you really eliminate one or two ab workouts a week if you are doing some of these compound lifts? (mont mentioned that he does abs every other day rather than every day because of the inclusion of compound lifts in his workout.)

Again, not trying to question your expertise, because I'm sure you're right. I've just done A LOT of heavy squats in my life and have never once felt it in my abs...

[D Beaupre]

Originally Posted by mont

Hi Don,
...one can cheat here and there, and it will be better than when one cheats all the time. I say cheat to mean not eating smartly. But no way in hell it will be the same results as if you stick to a diet of smart eating only - with a very rare laps once in a blue moon as i metioned earlier...

I agree with 99% of what you've said - it's just this comment that I don't agree with, since this hasn't been my experience. When I was at 5-6% bodyfat (before the wife and the kids and the desk job ) I did cheat once or twice a week and there's almost no way I could have been leaner. I don't think anyone (with maybe very few exceptions) keeps their bodyfat less than this for more than a month or so - body builders, guys on the cover of "Men's Fitness" magazine, etc. all pretty much get down to 3-4% for a contest or photoshoot and then go back up to about where I was at for their everyday life.

So I guess my point is, I feel like I got my bodyfat down about as far as was healthy and kept it there for several years (in my early-mid 30s), all the while eating like a fiend for one or two meals a week. But I don’t at all dispute the part about breaking the addition – that I totally agree with. But again, these are just my opinions based on my experience.

[mont]

Don,
I think we think almost the same. I really dont think it is realistically possible to "never cheat" as our daily life will often dictate something else. For example, even I, Mr. Never Cheat himself do it. Only last week, I got in to my hotel, beat to hell, the restaurant was closed, and there was nothing around or open - except for ....ta da - MCDONALDS! It was better to eat that than nothing at all so I did! (I was however selective in what I chose....)

The point is, by trying to give yourself tight guidelines, I feel it simply helps to reduce the LIKELIHOOD of constant slipping away from a diet best suited to achieve what we are all looking for. And for the majority, if we dont come close to keeping ourselves in check - we wont get those results.

Its an ideal to be sure - its not expected that many (if anyone) will actually adhere to it to the letter each and every time - neither do I - but I try!

[streethockeygoalie]

Originally Posted by Fade2Black

You have to remember he's a beginner. While compound exercises are far more benefial than isolations if he's unaware of proper form they can lead to injury. You must ease a new lifter into workouts.

You recommended he do squats. The squat is one of the most difficult exercises to do properly, just as difficult as the deadlift. So I don't see how you can justify telling him to squat, but not to deadlift (but you told him to do SLDLs, which, in my opinion, have a far greater risk of injury due to improper form than regular deads) because on the off chance he has bad form. That's why if you're going to do things like deadlifts and squats, it's extremely beneficial to have someone with you who has experience doing such exercises, so you don't hurt yourself performing the exercise incorrectly.

Originally Posted by mont

Hello?

Wrong, because it is common knowledge even now and absolutely historically, where there is a difference between what is required to be a BODY - BUILDER and POWER LIFTER. And yes, you can find individual examples of the other too where some powerlifters are actually dropping the spare tire - but not the MAJORITY. We are not discussing INDIVIDUALS - we are generalising two applications - READ! My comments were 110% accurate. You need to do more reading on this thread - and what it is about - and to learn the differences between the two genre's which are very different as a rule. Anyone that tries to imply that BODY-BUILDING and POWER-LIFTING use the same application of diet (and training too), needs to examine themselves.

I never said that. I realize there is a difference, a big difference, I was just commenting on the fact that you seem to think one's diet is only important if you're looking to get "cut" (as you like to call it), and I honestly believe otherwise. Sure, powerlifters eat a lot of **** compared to bodybuilders, but you can't tell me they don't care what they put into their bodies, and that it doesn't affect their performance. If you really want to nitpick, then we really shouldn't be talking about what bodybuilders eat either -- you're all hockey players, not bodybuilders. You want 20+ inch arms, shoulders like cannon balls, a lat spread you could fly with, and a bodyfat percentage that'll make your skin look like onion skin, barely covering your bulging veins and 250+ pounds of rock hard muscle? Awesome. But you aren't going to be a very good hockey player.

Originally Posted by mont

Since you enjoy attacking my comments (and others) in a very childish manner perhaps you would understand my advice for adding bran to the protein shakes in this way?

Yeah, I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you is attacking your comments. Sorry for expressing a differing opinion here. My bad.

Originally Posted by mont

Protein and Constipation

Protein can tend to be constipating for many reasons. Unlike fruits or vegetables, it has no roughage to mop up the waste material and keep it moving. The slow-moving protein food should always be eaten with vegetables to help move it along through the digestive process. Just like your car cannot operate without gas, your colon cannot operate without roughage.

Uhhh... yeah, maybe that has some merit if you're the type of person who doesn't come in contact with any fruit of vegetable in any manner what so ever, but if you have a good diet (which is pretty much the main point of this thread), you'll be getting plenty of roughage to pass stuff through. Not anywhere have I ever read that you need to worry about enough fiber with increased protein intake.

Originally Posted by mont

If you wish to write 500 pages explaining the pluses and minus to every approach and body type, every diet and every biological counterbalance between the different food sources, every explanation between what lifting approach is presumably better than the other, and every debate to the contrary (of which there are THOUSANDS), be my guest.

I really think you're blowing this a little out of proportion. I just made some comments about a few things you said. I didn't disect and dismiss every single sentence you wrote. Take it easy, buddy.

Originally Posted by mont

The man is a pinnacle of the sport. I still wouldnt recommend HIS diet habits for the topic of this particular thread - losing fat and building lean muscle.

I wouldn't either, and I wouldn't recommend Ronnie Coleman's diet, or Lee Priest's diet, or Jay Cutler's diet, or Dorian Yates' diet to anyone on these forums. Like I said, you're hockey players, not bodybuilders.


***EDIT***
Oh, and I'd just like to point out that I never said powerlifters do or should eat clean like bodybuilders. I just said their diet is important to achieve peak performance, and it is.


Signed,
streethockeygoalie's brother

[mont]

Originally Posted by streethockeygoalie

I was just commenting on the fact that you seem to think one's diet is only important if you're looking to get "cut" (as you like to call it), and I honestly believe otherwise. Sure, powerlifters eat a lot of **** compared to bodybuilders, but you can't tell me they don't care what they put into their bodies, and that it doesn't affect their performance. If you really want to nitpick, then we really shouldn't be talking about what bodybuilders eat either -- you're all hockey players, not bodybuilders. You want 20+ inch arms, shoulders like cannon balls, a lat spread you could fly with, and a bodyfat percentage that'll make your skin look like onion skin, barely covering your bulging veins and 250+ pounds of rock hard muscle? Awesome. But you aren't going to be a very good hockey player.

You can see whatever you want. Problem is, you are not seeing what is WRITTEN or understanding what this thread is about. You are so blinded by your insistance on arguing, you are not even on the same subject.

Originally Posted by streethockeygoalie

Uhhh... yeah, maybe that has some merit if you're the type of person who doesn't come in contact with any fruit of vegetable in any manner what so ever, but if you have a good diet (which is pretty much the main point of this thread), you'll be getting plenty of roughage to pass stuff through. Not anywhere have I ever read that you need to worry about enough fiber with increased protein intake.

Dont ASSume - you know what that does. Again if you actually UNDERSTOOD the thread - which is for people to IMPROVE THEIR DIET you wouldnt be making these kinds of comments. If we assume people have good diets - WE WOULDNT HAVE THIS THREAD NOW WOULD WE! Lights on! Adding the fiber to a shake is an easy way to do it (gain good level of fiber) and good timing to boot. It will lower cholesterol, fight against colon cancer , help prevent strokes and heart disease, not to mention overal better digestion! You might actually be CONTRIBUTING to this thread by mentioning that instead of trying to slither out of your original comment that protein cant cause constipation so why bother etc. etc. etc. Do you really have something against adding bran to a shake or is it just that you want to maintain an infinite loop by arguing about it?


I wouldn't either, and I wouldn't recommend Ronnie Coleman's diet, or Lee Priest's diet, or Jay Cutler's diet, or Dorian Yates' diet to anyone on these forums. Like I said, you're hockey players, not bodybuilders.

LOL! These peoples results are based on STEROIDS! We are having a discussion about achieving healthy bodies through nat