Throwing the back shoulder - Butterfly slide

[sloth2946]

I've talked with Cuban about this a few times, and he said at one of the Rochester clinics that Yona(Phantom30 I think here, and goalie coach for the U of Michigan) stated that when you butterfly slide over that you should not just do it with your legs, but throw your back shoulder into, i.e. towards, the save.

I struggled with what he was talking about until the penalty shot by John Madden on Lundqvist.

Here's the vid of it.

YouTube - Rangers Devils 2008 Game 5 Madden Penalty Shot Lundqvist

If you watch during the replays, watch as Lundqvist literally forces his blocker and right shoulder at Madden and the effect it has on the save.

The effect is that his shoulders rotate square to the shooter, thus rotating his hips too. As well as this forces the blade of the stick to the left which kept it in the 5 hole space to steal the W for the Rangers and the series. You will notice that the stick is flush and square to Madden as well as the blocker and the right shoulder. Ideally he'd like to have that back leg seal the hole too but that did come over after the result.

It's a good way to mentally workout the mechanics for the move so that we don't end up with the stick flying away like in the pictures Keeks has posted before, and we've all done.

Hell that is how Huet got burned on the penalty shot against Mike Richards.

Discuss.

[Law Goalie]

While I see your point, and it makes mechanical sense, this save might not have been the best illustration. When I was watching the replay in hi-def, the puck pretty clearly hits Lundqvist in the cup - Madden found daylight, and just put it a little too high. Yet another reason I'm not crazy about paddle-down...

Throwing the trailing shoulder is a great idea to have in mind, either way, but the key seems to be to lead the movement with the stick.

Luongo is almost exactly the opposite: he throws his backside arm around like a counterweight.

[sloth2946]

Originally Posted by Law Goalie

Throwing the trailing shoulder is a great idea to have in mind, either way, but the key seems to be to lead the movement with the stick.

Throwing the shoulder causes you to lead with the stick which is the point I was making.

[EvilPepe]

Originally Posted by Law Goalie

Luongo is almost exactly the opposite: he throws his backside arm around like a counterweight.

I can see how this would work "ok" if the backside arm is the glove, but the only times I have the occasional problem keeping square is on the other side. Throwing that side back seems (to me) to leave too much potential for moving the stick out of position.

[Courage1]

Originally Posted by Law Goalie

Luongo is almost exactly the opposite: he throws his backside arm around like a counterweight.

My stick discipline sucks pretty bad either way, but I have horrible results executing this way. I did this a lot when I started learning how to slide (and still do in the odd desperate situation ) but I always feel off balance and never get much of a push this way.

I dont think of pushing my back shoulder specifically, but I make a conscious effort to make my shoulders square, and the rest of my body seems to follow suit. I have had much better results this way.

[Law Goalie]

Originally Posted by sloth2946

Throwing the shoulder causes you to lead with the stick which is the point I was making.

Right: I was trying to suggest that the 'idea' of the movement could be phrased either way - as "throwing the shoulder" or "leading with the stick". Having said that, I think the ideal result of the movement is the leading stick (the shoulder position isn't as important, ultimately), but that teaching the shoulder movement will lead to easier uptake, a simpler method of instruction, and better results (ie. stick leads) than simply telling goalies to lead with the stick. One's a core movement, the other has a more difficult dexterity component.

Actually, I think the idea of teaching stick-shoulder movements is a much broader and more significant one. For example, when Keeks was demonstrating fake poke-checks, what sold the fake wasn't the movement of the stick or blocker but the change in the attitude of the shoulder.

[Law Goalie]

Originally Posted by EvilPepe

I can see how this would work "ok" if the backside arm is the glove, but the only times I have the occasional problem keeping square is on the other side. Throwing that side back seems (to me) to leave too much potential for moving the stick out of position.

Curiously, Luongo really doesn't seem to care. Then again, there's a lot of him to move, so maybe he has to use whatever he can to get himself moving.

[dreadlockgoalie]

Last summer in Ottawa, Yona used the analogy of "opening the door", ie, you being the door moving on a pivot, getting your body to face the shooter, so that when you do push, you'll arrive square. Taking all the biomechanical terms out of the concept can make it a little easier to understand. Essentially, you worry about being square to the shot as much as getting your body toward it. You do this (properly, being the rub) and you end up with your eyes, head, chest, stick, etc, in the right direction and stopping the puck becomes a lot more of a no-brainer. Doesn't matter if you're making just a shuffle, b-fly push, it will tend to work the same.

As an aside, I noticed Luongo seemed to get beat a lot this year on his blocker side because he ended up simply extending and reaching with his arms on dekes and finished with his face on the ice after the shooter flipped it up on him.

[Slapshot011]

I'm actually having a little trouble with the terminology of "throwing the shoulder". It seems like this could be taken as the shoulder leading the body. That would seem to be counter productive to good balance or even cause over twisting. Even in the example it seemed that he basically let his upper body stay with his legs. Wouldn't this be more effective to say don't let your shoulder lag behind?

Am I missing something being someone that is still learning b-fly slides?

[lankymofo]

I like the way dreadlock described it. Maintaining your squareness to the shot (both upper and lower body) throughout the movement whether it's a butterfly slide, knee shuffle, t-push, whatever...However you describe it, it looks technically sound.

Edit: Oh yeah, and how do you maintain your squareness throughout the movement? By throwing your back shoulder and leading with the stick, of course! Grab onto whatever wording and mental imagery allows you to understand and execute the save.

Good technically breakdown guys!

[CubanPuckstoppr]

Good observation and applicaion Sloth .

Dreadlock offers a great explaination, the part of the door that opens is the, the pivot is the near shoulder. Throwing the far shoulder does not imply flailing arms. If your stick is in front in good position "opening the door" should still allow you to lead with the stick.

[Jansson]

My experience and opinion is: With the rotation of your hip the rest will follow up nicely. You simply can´t "throw" your arms to the side and expect miracles to happen. The hip rotation comes first, then the arms. But it´s hard to tell, since it all is done pretty much at the same time.

By the way I´ve never been a fan of the paddle down.

[CubanPuckstoppr]

Originally Posted by Jansson

My experience and opinion is: With the rotation of your hip the rest will follow up nicely. You simply can´t "throw" your arms to the side and expect miracles to happen. The hip rotation comes first, then the arms. But it´s hard to tell, since it all is done pretty much at the same time.

By the way I´ve never been a fan of the paddle down.

No one is advocating throwing arms

The concept of throwing the shoulder is to lead with the stick, but have more of a feeling of the stick being pushed towards the puck, not the stick pulling the movement towards the puck.

Who recommends hip rotation first? Are you advocating rotating the hips without a visual lead to the pucks new location? Additionally, I have to beleive that leading the rotation witht he hips will lay the foundation for a lagging stick, the key bieng in your words "the rest will follow up."

[gophergirl]

Cuban,

In dance, when turning, moving, changing weight, you are taught to lead with your hips and the rest will follow. It's easier to turn your upper body and leave your core facing the wrong direction. Looking to where you want to turn your center, or spotting is also a technique for getting your body around. However, you turn your head, not your upper body.

It might be just a different way of looking how to move your body. Either way, by the time that you are done your shoulders, hip bones and toes should be facing the shooter.

[dreadlockgoalie]

Originally Posted by gophergirl

Cuban,

In dance, when turning, moving, changing weight, you are taught to lead with your hips and the rest will follow. It's easier to turn your upper body and leave your core facing the wrong direction. Looking to where you want to turn your center, or spotting is also a technique for getting your body around. However, you turn your head, not your upper body.

It might be just a different way of looking how to move your body. Either way, by the time that you are done your shoulders, hip bones and toes should be facing the shooter.

This is they way I've always approached it. Move the head and hands to lead/spot but your body and feet should be rotated and everything back to be setup square toward the puck before you're moving. Even as you start to look for your "reference point", you should already have your legs moving. In practice. In reality, I'm not nearly this consistent but for good goalies it has to be second nature.