Half Butterflys = Bad ?

[Goalieworld20]

half-butterflies open up more wholes than they seal, and also leave you less mobile to follow the puck. and time a half b-fly can be used, so can a full and the full will always work out better.

and someone said you can move wuicker out of a half b-fly? this is not ture. with proper technique you can move almost as quick out of your b-fly (or in it) as you can on ur skates.

[Spud387]

I am more half b-fly (look at my avatar) but its because of my flexibility. I can't quite keep those knees down and keep -pads wide

[geojedi]

Mitch Korn once said that the most used save is the half butterfly.

My thoughts is that there are two types of half butterflys.
First, there is the corrective HB. This is the keeper who BFs for everything then will HB to the side that the puck is going to. See Steve Shields.
Second, there is the keeper who will use the HB appropriately instead of the aforementioned.

[¿Que?]

half butterflies are great. No reason you shouldn't use them (blah blah rebounds blah blah... you're supposed to get your stick on it in the first place the pad is your backup). 1 knee up 1 knee down is even better. my favorite save besides stacks

and your knee is supposed to be down on half bflys not off the ground anyways. basically a bfly with flair to 1 side

[secross2]

Originally Posted by geojedi

Mitch Korn once said that the most used save is the half butterfly.

My thoughts is that there are two types of half butterflys.
First, there is the corrective HB. This is the keeper who BFs for everything then will HB to the side that the puck is going to. See Steve Shields.
Second, there is the keeper who will use the HB appropriately instead of the aforementioned.

see Steve Shields thats why he was so fun to watch...

[Weirdo]

Originally Posted by azdave

Here is the problem with the half butterfly it leaves a huge opening. I know there are some who will say it all depends on the save but with as many redirections as there are today I think the half butterfly leaves you asking for a soft goal. My son is very good when he uses a full butterfly. He got off the ice the other day and he said, not me, but him, that he gave up a couple of goals because he reverted back to the half butterfly that his old coach thought was incredible. Once he realized what he was doing he actually started practicing the full butterfly during the breaks and he did not let another goal in.

Francois Allaire has had such incredible success with his teaching method and after attending his camp for 3 years I completely agree with his style and teaching method.

Hey that's great that your son is very good with the full butterfly. It's also great that FA has had a lot of success coaching. It proves that his ability to teach and impart his knowledge is very good. But it doesn't necessarily prove that his way of goaltending is better than someone else's.

The thing with picking apart the half butterfly is that there are also flaws with the full butterfly. I remember when I started it was all about standing and covering as much net as you can. Anyone who got scored on up high got called out for going down to their knees to try to stop the shot.

I'm sure there were dad's out there who bought into another goalie coach's method and his standup style way back when. My point is, we shouldn't be telling someone, "my way is the best way, yours is totally flawed."

[Weirdo]

Originally Posted by Goalieworld20

half-butterflies open up more wholes than they seal, and also leave you less mobile to follow the puck. and time a half b-fly can be used, so can a full and the full will always work out better.

and someone said you can move wuicker out of a half b-fly? this is not ture. with proper technique you can move almost as quick out of your b-fly (or in it) as you can on ur skates.

With even practice of the proper technique, it wouldn't matter which save you chose to use.

[The Wall33]

I disagree with Mr. Allaire (and some others on here) that the half pad extension should not be taught or used.

Every save is SITUATIONAL and every goalie is an INDIVIDUAL. Depending on the environment (eg. no chance of a deflection) a half pad extension might make perfect sense. Depending on the physical ability of the goalie, a butterfly only approach might make no sense.

One example that comes to mind is during a breakaway. Let's assume a high speed attack where the goalie has read the shot is going to the glove side. Traditionally a body shift into a butterfly block could be used, likely with some success if done correctly. But what if that particular goalie is not great at body shifts? or reading the play? is caught a little behind the release? is very small in stature? What (think Sakic) if the shot release is so quick you cannot use a body shift and you just need to occupy the most likely area the shot will go?

An extension allows elevation and protection of the top shelf. Equally important, it keeps the offense off-balance because you are showing them something different, which plays on the mental side of the equation, something many goalies rarely grasp to its full extent.

In the above scenario a drop block & pray mentality will lead to getting pumped high over your glove, even though you will look like a so-called 'modern style' goalie. I've played against, coached against and watched dozens of modern day 'whiz kids' who over-rely on butterfly drops much to their detriment. Let me be clear: a one dimensional goalie (eg. butterfly only) will not last long at any serious level of hockey unless their team is built specifically around them (eg. Giguere). Most goalies, especially at the minor level (21 & under) need a combination of reading & awareness skills, patience and a repetoire of saves that include extensions (ie. read & react) and not just butterfly drops.

As someone who takes pride in his teaching, I find Mr. Allaire's butterfly only cookie cutter approach much too simplistic (if in fact this is how he presents it, which I somehow doubt). Anyone who states that "this is the only way to do it, disregard anything else" is not teaching, they are preaching. It takes many lessons, followed by game reviews (taking notes and doing video) to fully understand what a goalie has for strengths and weaknesses. To go to a goalie camp for one week and have a system foisted on you and declared "the only way" is utter nonsense - it's a cop out.

It would be different if Mr. Allaire (you could substitute many other world famous goalie coach names in this sentence) was working with the goalie every week, attended his games, analyzed his strengths and weaknesses and then, after trying multiple techniques made the 'butterfly only' declaration. That is real teaching. That is taking the time to understand, evaluate and personalize the solution.

I continue to see too many goalies over-relying on the butterfly technique while repeatedly getting beat top shelf. Too many goalies have no real understanding of when to use it and when to play a patient read & react style. Blanket statements of 'my system is the best' do little to help any serious goalie and will likely retard any long-term development since the goalie will eliminate many perfectly useful tools from their toolbox.

Wellsie

(Edit: I just realized the original commentary was on half-butterfly extensions , not half-pad extensions. My same observations hold true, since the half-butterfly technique is even more important than the extension save and must be taught, IMO.)

[Declyn]

Originally Posted by The Wall33

I disagree with Mr. Allaire (and some others on here) that the half pad extension should not be taught or used.

Every save is SITUATIONAL and every goalie is an INDIVIDUAL. Depending on the environment (eg. no chance of a deflection) a half pad extension might make perfect sense. Depending on the physical ability of the goalie, a butterfly only approach might make no sense.

One example that comes to mind is during a breakaway. Let's assume a high speed attack where the goalie has read the shot is going to the glove side. Traditionally a body shift into a butterfly block could be used, likely with some success if done correctly. But what if that particular goalie is not great at body shifts? or reading the play? is caught a little behind the release? is very small in stature? What (think Sakic) if the shot release is so quick you cannot use a body shift and you just need to occupy the most likely area the shot will go?

An extension allows elevation and protection of the top shelf. Equally important, it keeps the offense off-balance because you are showing them something different, which plays on the mental side of the equation, something many goalies rarely grasp to its full extent.

In the above scenario a drop block & pray mentality will lead to getting pumped high over your glove, even though you will look like a so-called 'modern style' goalie. I've played against, coached against and watched dozens of modern day 'whiz kids' who over-rely on butterfly drops much to their detriment. Let me be clear: a one dimensional goalie (eg. butterfly only) will not last long at any serious level of hockey unless their team is built specifically around them (eg. Giguere). Most goalies, especially at the minor level (21 & under) need a combination of reading & awareness skills, patience and a repetoire of saves that include extensions (ie. read & react) and not just butterfly drops.

As someone who takes pride in his teaching, I find Mr. Allaire's butterfly only cookie cutter approach much too simplistic (if in fact this is how he presents it, which I somehow doubt). Anyone who states that "this is the only way to do it, disregard anything else" is not teaching, they are preaching. It takes many lessons, followed by game reviews (taking notes and doing video) to fully understand what a goalie has for strengths and weaknesses. To go to a goalie camp for one week and have a system foisted on you and declared "the only way" is utter nonsense - it's a cop out.

It would be different if Mr. Allaire (you could substitute many other world famous goalie coach names in this sentence) was working with the goalie every week, attended his games, analyzed his strengths and weaknesses and then, after trying multiple techniques made the 'butterfly only' declaration. That is real teaching. That is taking the time to understand, evaluate and personalize the solution.

I continue to see too many goalies over-relying on the butterfly technique while repeatedly getting beat top shelf. Too many goalies have no real understanding of when to use it and when to play a patient read & react style. Blanket statements of 'my system is the best' do little to help any serious goalie and will likely retard any long-term development since the goalie will eliminate many perfectly useful tools from their toolbox.

Wellsie

(Edit: I just realized the original commentary was on half-butterfly extensions , not half-pad extensions. My same observations hold true, since the half-butterfly technique is even more important than the extension save and must be taught, IMO.)

well said!

the only sad thing that i run in to when going up against another goalie in games is that there are some goalies who do really well dong nothing but dropping in to the bfly. thats not a testament to the goalie being good imo but the shooters sucking. but it makes that goalie think what they are doing is just awesome!

it drives me absolutely nuts. i tell my guys (who are very good shooters) between periods - 'guys, just lift the puck when you shoot, all he is doing is dropping to his knees. Eric, notice how the last 4 shots you took just hit his pad that was laying on the ice? lift that thing 13 inches man and those are all goals.'

some times they listen, some times not. i pretty much give that speech once per game every game, but it never seems to sink in.

being a hybrid, i have no freaking clue what type of save i am going to make on a certain shot, so know there is no way the shooter is going to know either; especially if he has played against me for any length of time.

i have played against what i would consider some very pedestrian goalies, and lost and all they did was drop to their knees and get hit every shot. they didnt MAKE the save, it just hits them.

so in some ways, if you are teaching a low level goalie who is going against low level shooters, i might just say... do this man it works often enought that you will make most saves with out even trying.

you put that goalie a league just one notch higher than that and they are toast!

[feliks]

Originally Posted by VCH

Hasek didn't flop around as much as people think. He normally used the same saves in the same way. But the difference was he had maybe 4-5 ways to make that save. Nonetheless they were not random.

"Hasek - Flops around - It works"

Never said it was random...he flopped around towards where the puck was going...and yes, he flopped around as much as I think.

[Cujo_64]

I appreciate all the comments here, I know that over the past couple years my son has always been a reaction type goalie, who uses the butterfly save for low direct shots or screens... it isnt a style for him. It's just a save tecnique. He even says that... at 12 years old. He has been a reactor more than a blocker since he started, He was a baseball catcher for 4 years before he started playing Hockey...so I guess it was instinct... I have taught him to use what works in each situation... so has the other goalie coaches he has worked with which has only been 1. This year the other goalie coach he is working with is a product of the GDI system so I guess that is where this is coming from.

I understand that using half butterfly opens up holes... but I havent seen my son use this on saves that were not within his blocking zone so it hasnt been a problem, The system he learned this summer works well for him, its not the end all be all, but I told him to use it along with everything else and it seems to be working.... I just want to make sure that when someone tells you NO that is WRONG that either they are doing something Wrong, or this person needs to understand the difference of opinions is ok.

Rob

[texasgoalie08]

Isn't another term for the "half butterfly" called the "V-fly"?? If it is, this is what I use when the pucks are coming at me from the corners. Stick down, one pad vertical, the other parallel to the ice and back towards the opposite post. This way, I am "loaded" and ready to push off with the vertical leg and already have the pad down to cover along the ice, in case the puck is sent across the crease. Teaching fundamentals is one thing, but, like it was said before in this thread, there is not a wrong way to stop the puck. After all, that's what our job is, to stop the puck, with no matter in how we are doing it.

[habs-fan]

Originally Posted by texasgoalie08

Isn't another term for the "half butterfly" called the "V-fly"?? If it is, this is what I use when the pucks are coming at me from the corners. Stick down, one pad vertical, the other parallel to the ice and back towards the opposite post. This way, I am "loaded" and ready to push off with the vertical leg and already have the pad down to cover along the ice, in case the puck is sent across the crease. Teaching fundamentals is one thing, but, like it was said before in this thread, there is not a wrong way to stop the puck. After all, that's what our job is, to stop the puck, with no matter in how we are doing it.

No. Half butterfly is exactly that. If you are standing sqy=uare to the goal line, drop down with one leg extended parralel to the goal line and the other folded at the knee perpendicular to the goal line. That's a half butterfly. The leg that is extende may or may not be in contact with the ice. If it is not, you stick covers the open hole.

There is no such thing as a bad save technique. If you stopped the puck, it's a good save. Some thechniques may be more difficult to execute, or may not be quite as eficient, but none are bad. And the more different moves you show the shooters, the more you keep them guessing, the longer they have to think and the better the odds they will miss the shot.

[Goalieworld20]

Just to clarify, when im saying half b-fly im meaning 1 leg up and 1 leg down. And it creates more holes, puts u off balance, decreases ur movement speed significantly to one side and leaves urself more open to injury

[hamstercaster]

I use the half B-fly regurlarly.. doesn't mean it's a good thing based on that but it works really well for me on shots from the slot. I find that when I'm well positionned and expecting a shot from the center of the slot, I'm really quick kicking the pad out for a half b-fly save on either side but a bit quicker on the left side. I also use that technique on breakaways to the right side when I know the guy is going top shelf blocker side... I open up and raise the blocker à la Mike Palmateer (I thin he was know for that type of save if my memory serves me right). I think that too many coaches teach the B-fly exclusively and this may work well for some.. less for others like goalies who don't have a wide b-fly for exemple. half b-fly's are good when you need to reach a bit further I find.. at least for me but I'm no pro and nothing more than a drop in hack. Anyway, aside from a few things that are somewhat standard I think that each and every goalie should use what works best at their caliber. At much higher caliber I can understand the logic of using the full b-fly as it is used to block and cover as much space as possible and play percentages and all but at drop in sessions and weaker levels where you usually have time to see the shot than pretty much anything goes if it works for you I guess.