Half Butterflys = Bad ?

[scottyboy39]

Originally Posted by dreadlockgoalie

Sure, but in how many games are you going to be making only perfectly positioned butterfly saves? You use what works for whatever situation it's good for. It's fairly simple.

If your playing in low level beer league you can do the math part of it and make saves the entire game. But playing high level ice hockey the game is always changing vvery fast right in front you. So you nailed it on the head. You have to use what you can to make the save.

I notice alot of guys who only say the Bfly should be used post pics of a half butterfly with a shot thats up high so the coverge down low isnt there. Its always the first thing they point out. "look everyting down low is open" when you clearly see the puck up high over the net.

I just dont see the point in having to butterfly if the shot is going low left. My half butterfly will put the puck where I want it. Theres a video on youtube somebdoy had of me in a game using my half butterfly I gotta find it.

[Goalieworld20]

Originally Posted by The Wall33

Referring specifically to the picture posted (post #34), I'm not sure why you are saying that is ineffective?

If we agree that two of the most basic principles of goaltending are to stop the puck and not let out a rebound, then that guy has them both covered. There's no chance of a deflection or redirection so what is the issue?

Is that the technique I would personally use from there? Is it what I would teach developing goalies? Likely not. I would encourage a body shift and have the puck hit the chest and be controlled by the glove. Having said that, if the goalie was doing this on that specific type of shot it's not 'wrong', nor is it 'faulty' per se.

if this is used to make a low save with he pad then 1. the rebound will be kick straight back out to the shooter and 2. if this is used for any save with traffic a simple deflection will ap the puck through any of the enormous holes (wide open five hole, gaps under arms etc)

and im referring to the pic i posted. the pic u posted of the AAA kid is a fine save. both pads are on the ice (even tho a full b-fly with the use of the stick would have made the save and most likely put the rebound into the mesh) still a perfectly fine save.

and to dreadlock goalie. ill make a perfectly positioned b-fly save on any shot pretty much. positioning is extremely important and if im on my game i CAN be in position for any single shot. one-timers and such are an exception. but on a player with the puck coming to shoot, im in position, b-fly nothing to shoot at. ( and i do have reflexes haha and need to use these in many situations, but the better in position i am, the less i must rely on my reflexes, the easier the game is)

and its also been proven using frame by frame that some shots are too fast to the react to. it took a shot 6 frames to get to the net, but it took fleury 8 frames to react. so his positioning and b-fly made this save. this study was done by shane clifford (awesome goalie coach that works for the penguins) and steve switzer (portalnd winterhawks WHL goalie coach)

[azdave]

Francois and Benoit have two distinctly different teaching styles. Some of the pics of a half butterfly look to me at least as they are dropping down into a full butterfly. The true half butterfly leaves that one pad off the ice and this is where I have found it really opens some holes that appear to allow soft goals. It is pretty obvious we all agree on whatever works best for each goalie.

I believe that Francois's record of bringing goalies to D1, pro leagues including the NHL is pretty impressive, if not the best out of all the big name goalie coaches. So his style and teaching method seem to work pretty well. Even Patrick Roy's kid was at camp.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by azdave

The true half butterfly leaves that one pad off the ice and this is where I have found it really opens some holes that appear to allow soft goals.

This is the big difference. Some people are showing/thinking of a full butterfly with rotation and flare adjustment for rebound control, and calling that a half butterfly. Wellsie's posted sequence is not what I would call a half butterfly.

[scottyboy39]

Having young goalies preach to us older goalies about how our style does not work period, you guys just come off as those preachers that follow you around out in public telling me you can introduce me to Jesus. Side story for the board members on here, last night me and fellow board member JON were leaving a diner and we run into one of those guys. Lol he told us we can meet Jesus right there but JON would have to walk with him behind some trees to show him lol funnny. We kept looking for a van with a hidden camera.

Your still too young. But as you get older and hopefully go higher and higher in hockey you'll find a lot of things you say are ineffective now, you'll be incorporating our methods into your game as you go from the cookie cutter goalie to growing into your own.

First pic is what you guys are posting beer leaguers using the half blfy. With the high shot and pointing out the huge hole on the bottom such as in this one.


Here we have a proper placed half bfly with the rebound going to the corner.


Here a half blfy nice and tight


Here a nice halfblfy in real tight with a paddle down. Something else that the "Math" says in ineffective


When used the correct way once you read the shot the Half is just as effective. I feel a buttefly only goalie is lett ing the shot play them.He see the shot, butterflys then reacts to the shot.

[azdave]

The true half butterfly is one pad down and flush to the ice with the other pad about 8 to 10 inches off the ground. The down pad is the saving pad and the other pad being up like that is suppose to give you recovery time and speed while pushing across. I personally find neither is improved. I believe if taught the full butterfly early on the speed is equal to or greater than that of a half butterfly and also it covers a week area. Recovery time or returning to standing up seems to be no difference between the two styles.

I am not a coach but have watched enough lessons and camps and read enough articles, (goalie world, GDI website, goalie news, books, etc to have a pretty good handle on the positon. Plus I focus on the goalie in any game I watch pro or youth. The speed of the game has increase and the redirections have increased greatly so if I were a coach today, I would definitely be an advocate of the full butterfly style. At 53 I look back on the styles of the 60s to early 80s and I truly believe the butterfly would have been the best save style even then.

[scottyboy39]

Good point dave. But if your using the pad thats flat on the ice as the save pad your using it wrong. The pad (being the left one in the pics above) is the saving pad. For me if the shooter is coming down off the boards on my glove side. I cut the angle down and pretty much sure that when he shoots (about 95% sure) hes going glove side on me, seeing how I have taken away the blocker side and leave some net open glove side for him to take. 95% of the time he'll take the shot low and i'll use the half bfly. The other 5% of the time he'll pass it to the slot.

How I use the halfbfly is based on the angle im at, the situation, who my D is out there and does he have the slot covered containing the shooter to the out sides. Is the other team killing us on face offs in our own end, are we tired, do they have a guy trailing behind off the boards. I take all this into a ccount in a second and if theres no trailer and I can kick the rebound back out off the boards way behind the shooter to my winger trailing, im going to go with the halfbfly.

Almost all shots are left or right of the goalie. Maybe I would say about 75% of the time. IMO. Using the butterfly is perfect for all shots coming down the middle. But as a goalie playing at a high level, you need to be able to throw all of the saves. Not just one all the time. So theres nothing wrong with going with a half bfly save to the left if the shot is going glove side (my left) or right half blfy for shots to the blocker.

People do math on everything and just shows they are playing the % that when the puck is shot go down in the bfly and hope it hits you. The Butterfly is perfect for screne shots as since your vision is taken away you can go with the %. But when your one on one with a shooter theres no way the butterfly will stop him every time. Almost every time in the NHL you see goalis using the half bfly to make breakaway saves.

[Ryeno42]

Originally Posted by Cujo_64

So my son tells me after practice the other night where his organization has a goalie coach...

....I talked to my son and told him, I wont tell you this way or that way is WRONG, but I will tell you different ....


Rob

Get us some youtube video of him

[biguglygoalie]

Originally Posted by Swedish goalie

I have had both Francois and bennoit and they dont teach the same style. It is actually some big differences between the two brothers goalies. bennoits goalies usually play very far back in the net which Francois goalies doesnt. Their also is some changes when it comes how the goalie should skate.

yeah, you get drilled pretty hard with stay deep, stay square in benoit's camps...

[azdave]

scotty excellent point and a very good post. Information and pics always make these conversations much better. Most people do not and cannot use the raised pad to make the save the way Broudeur does. I know a lot of them want to try and do that but using the elevated pad may be one of the hardest saves to make. I am impressed that you have the timing and ability to do it. Most kids don't really get the half butterfly and use the pad on the ice to make the save. Same with a lot of the adults. I was trying to point out that in some of the pics it is not a half butterfly but a slow developing full butterfly. Also in some of the half butterfly pics you can see exactly why I think the full is a much better style to develop. Without proper timing and technique that hole is huge. Most youth goalies are going to have some softies going through there. Now take a look at those pics, give the goalie proper positioning and a true full butterfly and I would say the save is made without all the drama that goes along with a half butterfly. Brodeur is one of the very few that makes that save look so easy. In fact quite a few goalies try to copy Brodeur and have a very tough time with that style and then it is so hard to break out of it.

Just like the one pad down and one up on the wraparounds. That style has now become so popular that has trickled down to the 7 and 8 year old goalies. Personally my knee kills me if I do it wrong.

[scottyboy39]

Yep my I agrre 100%. I been playing for 26 years now and come from the old school of goaltending I guess. The half Bfly is misused so much. Full butterfly goalies think they use it, but really like you said they are just really doing the butterfly slide. Man I love this game lol.

[secross2]

so the pic in 38 is a proper hf (?) and I think with proper positioning and playing the angle right if needed the puck is going to go where it is directed to as a goalie waqs in a full fly correct? this is a great thread..

[Ryeno42]

No, that is a butterfly to the right.

[The Wall33]

We need a terminology fix here.

A half butterfly is a simply a save where one leg or the other is extended, FLAT ON THE ICE.

A half pad extension is simply a save where one leg or the other is ELEVATED OFF THE ICE.

The key points are elevation vs. flat on the ice. See the post by Scottyboy or proper definition using pictures.

I rarely get riled about things like this but please understand the difference before commenting. Please. Pretty please.

Without this basic understanding every facet of this discussion is useless.

With all due respect to Goalieworld20: I think you have been playing for a total of 3, maybe 4 years according to your profile. As someone has already noted, there are NO absolutes in goaltending, aside from a need to have a good awareness, good angle, good depth and be square to the puck. Everything else - they are simply details.

Regardless of the 'mathematical' formulas you have witnessed (please post them for us, I really want to see them) nothing is set in stone. The game is too dynamic for a one solution approach.

I spend my life (and this is a sad commentary) essentially devoted to analyzing and understanding this wonderful position/sport. I read resource after resource, analyze multiple sources of material, talk to coaches, talk to NHL goalies and shoot hours of video which I then watch frame-by-(often) painful-frame to see what works. If it was as simple as saying do this, this and this I would be a gazillionaire right now (like the cookie cutter guys!).

Let me save the drama: it's not that simple. I wish it were.

I will repeat a simple truism: every situation is unique and must be treated accordingly. The photo posted earlier by Goalieworld20, showing a half-pad extension save was textbook: no screen, no chance of a tip, a read & react save and no rebound. It does not get any better than that, regardless of what anyone tries to 'prove'.

I think I've said my piece here. I'm always open to new ideas but this is so old it must seem new to the rookies. God bless 'em for keeping us sharp.

Wellsie

[dread]

Wellsie,

Thank you for taking the time and having the patience to stick a fork in this thing.