To all us "stand up" goalies...

[RichMan]

...WE ARE NOT A MYTH!
Here is where i seemed uneased by an article i've read on this site. The author states in many words, that there are no such thing as a "stand up goalie". I disaggree.

If it is propper to designate the term "butterfly style" to a many goalies out there, why is it not logical, or at least reasonnable to identify a "stand up style" goalie aswell?

If i understood the author well, due to the fact that the "stand up" minder is as much on his knees, it is right to refute the "style" term and imply that that goalie is as well a "butterfly" user.

Now i confidently pride myself in calling my style as a "stand up" one. How do i identify this style: A goaltender who spends much of his time or focus on standing...playing more out , closing off more of the angles...relying greatly on closing the shooters view and using mostly his body to cover. I'm not sure if i explained it well, but if i could post some pics, i definitely would. I could best use as a reference the style of Jacques Plante, Vladislav Tretiak, Mike Vernon, just to name a few.

Now in light of this, wouldn't it be true as well to state that the "butterfly style" goalie is a " stand up" one also? Granted they spend much of their saves on their knees and tend to commit earlier to close the ice and greatly rely on their trapper/blocker. But they do have to get up now and then and take a breath.

I, myself, have never been much of a "butterfly" user. More so of a one pad "butterfly"...or "kick pad save" as i prefer to call it. Maybe it's because my hip or knee ligaments weren't plyable enough to commit, or i simply adopted the style i emulated from my idles growing up.

In any case, it is my opinion and feeling that us traditional "stand up" goalies deserve recognition, and the right to be labeled for what we are...A STAND UP GOALIE.

Call me old school, but eh...

Stay tuned for my next debate...to bring or not to bring back the vintage leather look.(hehehe)

[tom_m]

RichMan -

I think that the gist of Paul's article was that "Stand Up"refers not to always remaining on your feet, but rather to waiting until the shot is taken before making the save. By staying centered in the net and square to the shooter until the puck is released, you'll make more blocking saves than reflex saves. You'll also have more shots go wide of the net.

In the context of the article, the opposite of "Standing Up" is "Guessing" (not Butterflying).

- Tom M.

[sloth2946]

Sorry kids, but you got the context of the article all wrong. The context of the article has nothing to really do with stand up or butterfly, it has to do with coaches arbitrarily telling young goalies to 'stand up' all the time when they don't have a clue as to what is meant by the phrase stand up or the style of a stand up. I tend to agree with Paul that there is not such thing as a stand up goaltender anymore. No goalie out there in the NHL is predominantly a standup. They all drop almost as much as the 'butterfliers'. In truth there really isn't any distinct style anymore other than guys who abuse the butterfly and guys who don't. Sorry, but Paul is dead on here.

[robbf]

Damn sloth-meister, you beat me to it
The reasoning or thought behind the article was to hopefully enlighten all those fools (or the odd coach who is smart enough to know they are not goalie coaches) who insist on screaming at the goalie to 'stay on your feet' or 'don't go down so fast' that there is no right or wrong way to develop a style, and you don't have to stay on your feet all the time to play the position anymore.
There are some hard and fast constructs to apply to any given style or method to playing the position - but how or what you choose to call a style or method is nothing more than a convenient convention.
And I would tend to agree with sloth in regards to the belief that there are no true 'stand up goalies', at best I think most everyone would categorize themselves as a 'hybrid' type goalie.

[threefive]

...Abusing the Butterfly? Please elaborate Sloth.

[sloth2946]

Originally posted by threefive
...Abusing the Butterfly? Please elaborate Sloth.

Olie Kolzig. 'nuff said. Basically there is a segment of goaltenders out there that use the butterfly as their patent pending answer to every shot just because so and so does it or because they don't have the ability to use other saves which are more suited for the shots that they are using the butterfly on. Some people are very successful with it, read Pat Roy, most who do it are not so successful with it. Two guys who came up as Roy clones and abusing the butterfly are Thibault and Theodore. Both of them have changed their games this year, is it any wonder they both are potential Vezina candidates??!?! In my opinion anyone who uses the butterfly on 80-90% of their save selections are 1. not playing in a league that pushes their talent, 2. guessing, 3. actually real successful with it and have the ability and body type to get away with it, or 4. greatly abusing it. I would say that most people fit into catagory 4. A few like Bernie fit in 3. 2 is the 2nd highest number, and 1 is the least of the group. That is my theory.

[tom_m]

Sloth -

I don't think I missed the point of the article. Here's an excerpt that sums it up -

Standing Up is a system of play that is desirable at the highest level of hockey in the world, played by older, experienced goalies, on teams that keep high percentage scoring opportunities and uneven attacks to an absolute minimum. Most interesting is that what the professionals mean by standing up is not what we all think it means. Standing Up in upper level hockey is a “code” word for another thing all together.

One thing that cannot be taught is experience. As a goalie we grow into the understanding that Stand Up means Patience. The patience to wait until a shot is on its way before we make the decision of what to do. The understanding that falling down early gives shooters new options that were not there a split second earlier.

The choice is not Stand-Up or Butterfly, but rather Stand-Up (Patience) or Guess (Falling Down Early).

Respectfully,

Tom M.

[Cujo_64]

I always considered myself a Stand Up Goalie because I couldnt Butterfly ?? I guess not. I will wait for the shot 75 percent of the time ! The others are just for show. Rob

[Spike]

I am a stand-up goalie although my coach is always tellin me: don't go down!
What does he know about goaltending? To sum it up, in his words: I always wanted to play goal, but didn't want to have to carry the heavy bag.
I think that explains it.
As for butterfly goalies and stand up goalies, you are merely a goalie stopping the puck. I call myself stand up because I rarely butterfly, especially on skates. I might make a kick save from time to time, but on any shot above my toes I will be on my feet.

[alw]

Most goalies I see are hybrids. ....including most that call themselves butterfly goalies! I think it is funny how often it is defined as one way or the other!

[sloth2946]

Originally posted by alw
Most goalies I see are hybrids. ....including most that call themselves butterfly goalies! I think it is funny how often it is defined as one way or the other!

Couldn't have said it better myself. I have never understood why people feel the need to be classified.

[az]

Originally posted by tom_m


The choice is not Stand-Up or Butterfly, but rather Stand-Up (Patience) or Guess (Falling Down Early).

tom, you're really messing with Paul's article.

1. You can be patient and use the butterfly.

2. Sloth and others have already correctly interpreted Paul's article. It's about bad goalie coaching.

"Stand up" is a term used to describe certain playing traits and characteristics (narrow base stance, the tendency to kick save low shots, goalies who strap pads tightly to eliminate pad rotation and rely on directing rebounds away vs. loose strapping pads for rotation and to kill shots, and most importantly, goalies who rely on REFLEXIVE saves to the vast majority of game situations, vs. goalies who play the percentages and set themselves to BLOCK shots the vast majority of the time.) However, at lower level of play, coaches come to interpret "stand up" as a very rigid, stifling style of play where the young goalie must NEVER leave his/her feet. It is this bad coaching the Paul is critiquing in this article.

Paul is NOT saying the "the stand style is a myth"--he is saying that the "stand up style [as it has been MISinterpreted by youth coaches] is a myth".

BTW, sloth, you know that classification systems are very useful as teaching aides and as self-diagnostic systems when you need to analyze your own game to fix problems.

BTW x 2: Over time, I have begun to think that "hybrid" is a very vague and unhelpful term to describe goalies and playing styles... but that is another debate for another thread... Actually, I think it would be interesting to start classifying styles based on "reaction-style" versus "high percentage/block style"...
___________________________
I'm starting a secondary debate
___________________________

As far as I would respond to sloth and others who question the over-use of the butterfly (or ANY move), here's what I would say:

Abuse of a singular move DOES exist: Goalies using the butterfly when they would just be better served in some situations to stand up and take the shot in the arm or chest, or people who paddle down all the time, etc.

However, I think the OTHER extreme is just as bad. What is the other extreme? A goalie who tries to incorporate TOO MANY moves into his arsenal--without being able to differentiate which moves should be "base moves" that are effective in many game situations and which should be "secondary moves" that are effective in certain, limited situations.

I am thinking of goalie that I know who had great skating skills and physical talent--but lacked playing experience. He had mastered kick saves, the splits, the butterfly, half-butterfly, the paddle down, everything... However, the problem was that he had TOO many options--in game situations, he couldn't decide what the proper move was! Many times, he picked the wrong move (one common example was when he reacted to a short wristers from the face off dot with a big kick save--the puck would tink off the inside of his boot and deflect directly into the net...) or he would be so slow to react to the situation/shot that he would just end up flailing wildly and unsuccessfully...

Also, this goalie was just a hodge podge of too many mismatched styles. His base stance was very wide and low, like Thibault or Belfour--yet the butterfly was only a "secondary" move for him--he tried to play kick save and stand up out of the wide, open stance! Any 5 hole shots or rebounds resulted in a slow paddle down and an ineffectual sitting half split... (to me, this seems to be the perfect example of a "hybrid" goalie)

What I tried to advise him was to "trim down the fat"--pick 2 or 3 base moves that would be appropriate for him and the stance he wanted to play (i.e. butterfly). I figured that if he would rely on just 2 or 3 moves only (full bfly, half bfly, then paddle down), he would react to situations and shots faster and with more confidence since there would be less "thinking" involved.

And, in general, when I examine myself, I only have 2 or 3 base moves (full bfly, half bfly), and a couple other "secondary" moves (stand up, paddle down, kick save) that I use much less often or in special game situations. I feel that if I just rely on 2 (or 3) base moves, I clear my mind of as much clutter as possible, and I can hardwire my reflexes to react to a shot as quickly as possible (which allows me to be more patient). Since I know already what save move I will likely use (bfly) when the shot is actually taken, as I prepare for a shot, the only things I need to think about are angle and crease positioning (which is PLENTY for me, I assure you).

So, I use a bfly (or variation) about 70% to 85% percent of the time in games. Is that overuse, or is that the result of simplifying my game so I can streamline my thought processes and, thus, speed up my reflexes?

[Timberwoof]

I've been thinking about this issue for a while now, with two specific stimuli. First is the other goalie in my weekly pckup game. He tends to drop to the ice for any close shot, but not in any very useful way. Generally he ends up in some unrecoverable posture, and while struggles to move around down there, the shooter easily lifts the puck over him. He's been getting better lately, but some players still regularly fake him out the same old way.

The other impetus was what Keeks taught at the goalie clinic in San Jose back in January. (Hi, Steve!) When the puck is relatively close to the net, the goalie covers less of it than from farther away. So the goalie might as well drop to his knees, spread the pads apart, and hold his arms close to the body. The idea is to put as much of yourself in the way of any potential goal shot. If it goes over your head, it will go over the net.

So what I get from this is that it's okay to drop to the knees when the puck is in close, but all the usual rules still apply: be on the right angle, stay square to the shooter, keep your stick on the ice, and so forth. In addition, be ready and able to get back up again quiclkly when the situation changes.

When I first started playing, my teamies taught me this now goofy-looking stance with my pads together -- the classic stand-up stance. I had no sideways mobility and it was difficult to get down to cover the puck. Then at a Sharks goalie camp I learned a new stance: feet shoulder width apart, knees together, blades ****ed into the ice. I'm lower and thus blocking more of the net with my chest. I have lots of sideways mobility. It's easy to drop to a knee for a kick-save or to cover the puck.

I don't have the flexibility to do a real butterfly, nor could I ever get the hang of skate saves. (Drop to one knee as the other foot moves forward and out to the side, stopping the puck with the skate blade.) So I frustrate anyone who tries to get me to do those moves. However, I'm pretty good with kick saves and half-V saves, and when I do them, I try to get back up on my feet as fast as I can to face whoever got the rebound. I try not to flop about on the ice without a really good reason. Angles are my #1 technique. I believe whoever said, "If you have to make a spectacular save, that just means you were out of position."

I would not call myself a butterfly-style goalie, and I am certainly not a classic stand-up goalie. Hybrid? Maybe.

[tom_m]

AZ -

1. You're right, the article was primarily about coaching, but RichMan used it as a starting point to discuss the whole issue of stand up - butterfly - hybrid. That's what I responded to.

2. "You can be patient and use the butterfly. " That's exactly what I was saying. In the article, Paul says that "stand up" is a code word for patience, waiting as long as possible before making the save (whatever that save is). It's not about whether you leave your feet to make a save.

Regards -

Tom M.

[sloth2946]

Originally posted by Timberwoof
"If you have to make a spectacular save, that just means you were out of position."

That would be me!!! Basically if it is a hard ass, condescending quote...it is probably from me...

AZ: Damn fine secondary arguement. Seems to me that your friend was a jack of all trades and master of none. Just a big piece of conglomerate of every goaltender out there. I can see how that could cause a problem with a goalie. Was this goalie rather short on experience??? By that I mean in playing experience. If so that would probably be the reason why he had trouble choosing his saves. Experience is the greatest teacher, besides you of course. I used to be that way. Trying to be Beezer, Richter, Roy, and god knows who else back when I was starting to get serious. As far as my own personal save selections I have been told that I play more of a stand up game, in the modern sense of the stand up. But I tend to think that I have the same 2-3 bread and butter save selections as well as a couple tricks up my sleeves.