Butterfly vs. Half butterfly

[TartanBill]

We may have discussed this once, but my search of the archives doesn't quite answer the following question. What is the technique used when dropping to the half butterfly as opposed to the full butterfly.

We discussed the positive drive into the drop for the full butterfly in http://www.goaliestore.com/board/sho...half+butterfly

Allaire vs. Clark Clark vs Allaire only discusses the pros and cons of kicking.

What I'm getting at here is in the half butterfly, you end up with one leg kicked out, and the other mostly under you. Unless you do a full butterfly then kick to one side, it's hard to generate the positive drive needed to accellerate downward. I'm seeing kids drop by folding one leg in and kicking out with the other. Seems too slow for what should be more of a reaction save than a full butterfly.

An alternative is to use a short slide, driving down with the trailing leg, then pulling that leg in while kicking the leading leg out. This pushes you toward the puck rather than maintaining a constand angle position. People look at me blankly when I suggest this though. What do you all think?

[WERNER 1]

Is this what your talking about?



I seem to do this if the shot is just a bit out of my reach(Sliding into the save). If the shot is dead on, the I just do a full b/f.

It also seems easier to recover from a half than a full b/f. (It could just be in my head though. )

[sloth2946]

The half butterfly as you descirbe it by pushing into the puck is one that I use. I like it, you get the upper body coverage as well as a good about of low coverage, but the advantage is that while sliding it is easy to transition to a pad stack from that situation if you need to totally blow out the bottom of the net. I can't say that I use the half butterfly on shots that are almost dead on. If I see it going wider than I originally anticipated I will kick out the leg as I am down in the butterfly, I know this is poor technique, but I still do it and don't ever get practice time to work on it.....

[stripes]

Tartan,

I have this theory that part of the relative effectiveness of a half- or full-butterfly comes from the stance you choose.

I've concentrated on both one and the other at different points over the last two years, so I dug through my picture sets.

First, the butterfly: I think for a good butterfly you tend towards a wide low stance, feet far apart, knees fairly close, upper body straight. It leads naturally to a good butterfly. I don't have a good stance picture, but I can show some of the wide stances I did from time to time before this kind of play wrecked my knee.

Exaggerated wide stance as a shot goes wide:
http://www.idleminds.org/~tiger/hockey-shotwide.jpg

And the resultant butterfly I could do at the time, virtually perfect IMNSHO:
http://www.idleminds.org/~tiger/hockey-bfly.jpg

Now, the half-butterfly: I'm even better handling low shots now using a half-butterfly & kick style, because of stance alteration. Shins a little straighter, butt a lot lower (knees bent more), body angled aggressively forward (almost too much, it costs me upstairs sometimes). This means the centre of gravity is lower than before, so you end up not dropping as far, and actually more able to rotate/push parts of your body down on the low shot. It's harder to drop to a pure butterfly from this position though.

Pictoral examples.. Faceoff stance:
http://www.idleminds.org/~tiger/pics...is-faceoff.jpg

Not a half-bfly but the reason why I own the low corners:
http://www.idleminds.org/~tiger/pics...steve-seq1.jpg

You'll have a hard time convincing me I can't get low fast enough in a half-butterfly

(The latter pics are 1 year and 2 knee injuries after the previous ones.)

With each comes consequences. In a full butterfly, I found myself "locked in" when I committed, unable to recover fast enough or shift easily. Upper body was straighter, covering high easier, but it was hard to just stay up and even harder to push higher when needed.

Half-butterfly from my POV comes with more advantages and disadvantages. Advantages ranged from being able to hit those low corners easier and more accurately. If the shot's straight in, I can go to a reasonable full butterfly, though it's not so wide and tall as before. More often, if the shot's straight in I'll drop straight on my knees with the stick locked in, and take it off the stick or the pants (or occasionally the many levels of knee protection.)

If it's to one side or the other, it's easier to concentrate on that side and put the other leg straight down. From that position,like sloth said, it's MUCH easier to spin into a pad stack.

Disadvantages: I have to be careful of high shots since I'm now so low. With less overall lower coverage, tip-ins become more dangerous, especially if they go to the uncovered side. And rebounds off of goalie pants are pretty unpredictable. And, it's a little harder to take those foot-high shots in the body and keep them there as you can in a butterfly.

Hmm. CAn't think of anything else to say, so I guess I'd better get back to work.

[robbf]

Greetings T-Bill, I may be totally misunderstaing what you are trying to get at here, but it sounds to me like the move you are describing the kids doing is much like the entry into a paddle down type move, is that indeed the case?
If so, then I see your desire to correct the mechanics.
The alternative move you describe has me somewhat confused, you say to start it you drive the trailing leg down, then in while kicking the the shot side leg out, correct ?
To me, this would be a good description of a pad save to one side, minus the two trailing leg movements-you would just drive the trailing leg down/back at the same time you are kicking out the shot side leg.
The prevailing thinking in my mind being that you do not want to load the smaller muscles in the leg/groin by trying to slide and pull the trailing leg in, let the larger muscle groups do the work by dropping the leg down and back while kicking out the forward or shot side leg.
But, that being said, after giving it some thought perhaps the over-riding factor is save selection vs. type of shot? If the main priority is low net coverage then a full b-fly with proper positioning would be the solution, but maybe I am reading more/less into what your question is?
From personal expeirience the most effective half-b-fly move I have seen is a guy that keeps the trailing pad upright (bent at the knee) while he drops and flares the shot side leg, somehow he does this rather quickly and although he gives up a good deal of high net, I have yet to see anyone have the patience or ability to read his move and beat him there. I know I don't have the flexibility to do this myself - at least not without looking like I am falling out of a tree.

[guitargoalie]

HeY, what if you just made a kick save?

[WERNER 1]

Old School guys!

[Timberwoof]

Old school for old goalies, I guess.

My legs won't bend that way, so I don't do a full butterfly. I do a half-V when the shooter is close. Otherwise, I'm pretty good with my kick-save for shots low to one side.

As for how to get into the half-V position quickly, I let gravity do the work. After all, you can't get down to the ice faster than falling. No amount of sideways movement will get you down faster.

[az]

Hey, Tbill, what would you say about my situation?

After examining my butterfly execution, I discover that I really don't do a "full" butterfly. It seems that I tend to do a "double half butterfly".

Unforunately, the half of the half butterfly I do is the half where the leg is tucked underneath the butt. Double that to include both my legs and you have my style in a nutshell (don't forget the assorted guessing flop moves too).

BTW, I just sent you a PM, Tbill.

[TartanBill]

Az, I'd say you look like Tom Barrasso!

Timber, for the full butterfly, you certainly can get down faster than falling. In fact I would say that my center of mass hardly moves. Begin in a deep couch, legs spread to the butterfly width. Roll the ankles in and DRIVE your knees both in and forward. As you do this, you straighten your back. In the process your head, shoulders, and gloves will hardly move.

The slide isn't for speed, but rather is a consequence of the motion I am trying to describe. Conceptually I'm still struggling with the mechanics of how to execute this 1/2 butterfly vice a 1/2 V, vice a slide.

If you use this technique, you will have a lightening quick butterfly. I've never used the 1/2 butterfly much myself, hense my question. For me right now, I can drop then kick and this is executed pretty quickly, but I loose extension.

Robb, What this guy is doing is precisely one of the problems I see. I don't bleme the kids, they see pros like Cujo doing this all the time. The problem is you cannot execute this move quickly so it breaks down when you face quality shooters (Unless you have the athletic ability of Cujo)

Stripes, great pics and tech analysis. They give me something to think about as I try to resolve all this.

I'm with you Sloth. The only time I personally use the half butterfly is during a slide or as an adjustment. I'm curious about how others do it as well.

Werner,
I moved from mask to helmet/cage combo back in the '70s when the helmet was the new thing. I went to the combo mask, and back to helmet. I guess I'm so old the new school is now old school! I still use a kick save sometimes, but mostly to jam a player. I have this one move that combines a barrel block with a glove side kick save. Weird.

[WERNER 1]

The sliding thing is what I'm doing above, sliding from my left to my right, and at amy moment if needed I can rotate into a two-pad stack.....if needed. (Is this what you guys are talking about??)
I've also noticed that it's easier to change directions in the 1/2 b/f, like if in the pic above if I needed to go back to my left, it seems real easy for me to dig in with my right skate/OD and give a little push back to the other side.......well at least more so than if I was in a full b/f.

"I'm so old school, the new school is now old school!" That's good!

Any pics of the BB glove side kick save thingy??( I think I may do this as well.......or somthing very similar. )

[TartanBill]

Werner, unlike you and Stripes, I didn't come prepared with pics. I have a digital camera though, so If I can get to a stick time, I'll try to get some.

[TartanBill]

Stripes,

I understand your stance adjustments. Lower and straighter for the half butterfly. What I don't quite get are the mechanics.

For the full butterfly, I dig in the toes, but this doesn't seem to work for the half butterfly.


Please descrive the sequence of your actions, the kick to one side, the drop/drive to the ice with the knee that ends up under you, any pivot or turn. Do you start with one leg first, or both at the same time. What is the sequence for the pad that ends up face down. Do you drive the knee down and pull it in or do you just kick the skate back and fall on the knee.

I'm trying to figure out how to make this both fast, while getting maximum extension.

Thanks,

[stripes]

Let's see..

In either a half-butterfly or full extension to one side (kick save) the off-side knee goes straight down to the ice. Most of the rotation is downward at the hip, and the foot just drives straight back. A little falling is involved, but because I'm already so low, there's almost no "hang time".

In a half-butterlfly, the save-side leg rotates inwards at the hip socket and the knee goes down to the ice as well. I try and get the stick on the puck where possible, cover any fivehole otherwise. Toe is mostly downwards, I let pad flare give me the coverage.

In a full kick save, again there's rotation at the hip socket but the whole leg is side-kicked to extension, toe pointing forward.

That's the mechanics as best I can remember them.

[TartanBill]

Thanks for your input. I never had thought about it much, I just did it, until I had to actually teach it and student who looked awkward. Now I have to prove to myself that I know a correct mechanical sequence.

There is nothing like teaching to force you to REALLY understand something.