Blast from the past? Centurion combo VS COOPER SK2000

[Mitch92]

The only thing that Tony copied was the distinctive shape of the Cooper/Winnwell/Bauer plastic helmets that were made in the late 70's and 80's. I am sure that the reason this shape was copied is because that shape became the standard for goalies in the mid eighties. The customers who will purchase this helmet are likely older guys like myself who wore the Cooper SK2000's years ago and have never been able to get used to the masks of today. The other demographic will be the young adults who watched Hasek thoughout the 90's. It is called supply and demand. If someone copied the two piece plastic helmet then Bauer might have a case but Bauer never made a composite one piece helmet and this helmet will cost probably more than 10 times the amount that the Cooper/Bauer version cost and it will be worth it to someone like myself who wants a helmet but is not foolish enough to trust an ancient brittle plastic helmet.

[Boxer9]

Tony copied the DESIGN! Bauer owns the DESIGN! I bet Bauer does have a case and I hope they go after him. For the record, I don't approve of any manufacture that copies. Just not Tony. Mitch..you said you wouldn't be foolish enough to trust an ancient brittle plastic helmet. But you would totally trust a new and unproven product?

[sean]

Ok guys, lets cool it down some. I made this thread for two reasons.

First; Boxers original post at the beginning of this thread was a bomb in the middle of another thread. His post needed both more information and more discussion and it would take the conversation away from the original thread it was posted in.

And second, I felt the topic he raised was fair. This new mask might look like another mask. Now enough people have agreed to have made the point: this new mask looks like an older mask.

Boxer's real point relates to the morals or ethics of equipment manufacturing. Is it ok for a manufacturer to 'borrow' a design? Should they pay appropriate 'homage' to the original design? Can a manufacturer 'own' a design? Is there a copyright, patent... IP protection? if not should there be?

Where ever this thread goes, lets go easy on Boxer and Boxer, go easy on others.

Thanks.

[Lord of the Cage]

This is an occuring trend. I have talked with Boxer9 many times and we get along.

By him ALWAYS going back to this trend over and over it just seems as if there is more to the story that lies beneth the surface.

Everyone in the business takes cues from others, like any other industry. Some are more obvious than others. I personally don't like it but even the big guys do it.

T 3500 versus RBK Premier for just a tiny example.

I will not support someone who does it blantently, period.

I can rest at night if certain cues are taken but not the whole thing.

Lord of the Cage

[stonewalled]

Come on Boxer get with it. If you haven't noticed, everything old is new and retro has been in for quite awhile now.

On another note how many different shapes/designs/styles are there? Most masks look pretty much the same.

[lacrossekid01]

Originally Posted by Boxer9

Tony copied the DESIGN! Bauer owns the DESIGN! I bet Bauer does have a case and I hope they go after him. For the record, I don't approve of any manufacture that copies. Just not Tony. Mitch..you said you wouldn't be foolish enough to trust an ancient brittle plastic helmet. But you would totally trust a new and unproven product?

Cooper/Bauer/Nike owns the DESIGN of the SK2000 meaning two piece helmet, not the shape of said helmet.

Does Ford own the shape of all cars then? By your logic they do.

You may not be kissing any other mask makers ass but you sure have an agenda to light a fire underneath Sportmasks.

I don't own an SK2000 or a Sportmask. I will be getting a Mage or mage II soon though, just can't decide.

And just to add. Boxer I think most of your posts are quite level headed but you always seem to be up in Sportmasks grill.

[spidergoalie]

Originally Posted by Boxer9

Tony copied the DESIGN! Bauer owns the DESIGN! I bet Bauer does have a case and I hope they go after him. For the record, I don't approve of any manufacture that copies. Just not Tony. Mitch..you said you wouldn't be foolish enough to trust an ancient brittle plastic helmet. But you would totally trust a new and unproven product?

Obviously you directed this toward Mitch, but speaking for myself, I purchased a Mage I when they first came out. Not only unproven (aside from Tony's demo clip with the boni) but a totally new concept (at the time) and I could not be happier with it! Were I in the market for new head gear, the centurion would be my next purchase, and I would wear it without a moment of hesitation for my safety. I cannot say the same for a combo of "old brittle plastic"

Actually I don't understand your argument here at all. Every peice of equipment was at one time an unproven product. Are you suggesting there should be no more innovation or new products because it would be risky to trust them?

You have failed to answer how this centurion is any more of a copy than every mask is a harrison copy. I don't recall (and please correct me if I missed them) you starting any threads ranting about ******* or battram borrowing design ideas,
but with sportmask you pipe up.....go figure

Given the sk2000 is no longer available.
Given the sk2000 is plastic.
Given the sk2000 is two piece construction.
Given I suspect the padding is not the same,
Given that the ear peices are completely different,
What we have is a combo that has a raised section over the top. I'm afraid on the grand scale of morality, I see no crime here.

[Ryeno42]

If nike/Bauer lawyers' don't care why are we fussing over this?

Who cares.

It's "sportmask" not "sportmasks"

just like "Lego" not "Legos" (Goto www.legos.com)
(They took it off the news alert for people)

Patent is like only the first 10 years.

[lacrossekid01]

Originally Posted by Ryeno42

If nike/Bauer lawyers' don't care why are we fussing over this?

Who cares.

It's "sportmask" not "sportmasks"

just like "Lego" not "Legos" (Goto www.legos.com)
(They took it off the news alert for people)

Patent is like only the first 10 years.

It's Nike not nike. Quite aware that it's Sportmask, sorry for the unforgivable error.

[dreadlockgoalie]

Originally Posted by Boxer9

I would think a company like Bauer wouldn't stand for this.

Because Nike-Bauer really cares if a small custom mask manufacturer in Oakville, Ontario with exactly one pro wearing his products from the AHL level up is making a product that looks like something they once produced under a different name over a decade ago. Not to mention the SK2000 was made out of plastic. Not fibreglass, kevlar and similar materials. They said absolutely nothing at all about Battram's Myst line and they don't care about Sportmask's designs either. So give it a rest.

[Colonial]

OK, I am going to chime in.

The large manufacturers do care that their products are being copied. But it is a $$$ thing. To sue these small manufacturers cost more than it is worth to them.
Litigation is extremely expensive, that is the only reason Majors have not gone after these small players. They are considered nuisances more then anything else.

I happen to agree with most on the this item. It does look like a SK2000 . The 2000 has been out of manufacturing for many years. The helmet was used by many goalies due to it's design, it actually helped deflect pucks. Tony, has done a great job remanufacturing it. I think it looks awesome, and will make many combo users safer playing this game. So, even though I feel back engineering is wrong, this falls into a different catagory.

To try to accuse a guy of stealing a design that has been out of manufacturing for 10-15 years is just plain stupid. It would not hold a drop of water in litigation, it would be considered a frivilous law suit.

As for knocking off pads, that is another story, for another thread.

Marc

[lacrossekid01]

Originally Posted by Colonial

As for knocking off pads, that is another story, for another thread.

Marc

And we all know that horse has been murdered, raped, burnt, shot and all those other fun things so many time that we needn't go there.

[RyJ Maduro]

Lacrosse kid, if you're gonna get a new Sportmask, you should get the old mage. IMHO, the new mage is a tad ugly, but the old mage is a modern day classic.
Boxer, I didn't see your righteous indignation at Warwick's copy of the SK2000. This one has a noticable difference, namely the ear guard extension, so I don't see the problem. And considering Cooper isn't profiting from the sale of 10 year old helmets on eBay, I don't think it should matter. If I scrape up the money, this might just get me back into the combo. I would miss the side plates though. Aestetically, that is.

[Boxer9]

Originally Posted by spidergoalie

Obviously you directed this toward Mitch, but speaking for myself, I purchased a Mage I when they first came out. Not only unproven (aside from Tony's demo clip with the boni) but a totally new concept (at the time) and I could not be happier with it! Were I in the market for new head gear, the centurion would be my next purchase, and I would wear it without a moment of hesitation for my safety. I cannot say the same for a combo of "old brittle plastic"

Actually I don't understand your argument here at all. Every peice of equipment was at one time an unproven product. Are you suggesting there should be no more innovation or new products because it would be risky to trust them?

You have failed to answer how this centurion is any more of a copy than every mask is a harrison copy. I don't recall (and please correct me if I missed them) you starting any threads ranting about ******* or battram borrowing design ideas,
but with sportmask you pipe up.....go figure

Given the sk2000 is no longer available.
Given the sk2000 is plastic.
Given the sk2000 is two piece construction.
Given I suspect the padding is not the same,
Given that the ear peices are completely different,
What we have is a combo that has a raised section over the top. I'm afraid on the grand scale of morality, I see no crime here.

Spider..
I do see a crime here. I just don't like it when a company flat out copies another company's work. What others have done to Harrison is wrong too. Take Matt from Promasque. His shell design and the look of it is original and he has imagination not like somebody I know. First to put 5 deflecting bumps on top of the mask. First to use an air bag system. He comes up with new ideas. Why does Tony, Battram and ******* get under my skin? Because they flat out copy and they are proud of it! Does it matter if Bauer isn't making the SK2000 anymore....NO, it's still there's and Tony has no right to it. Unless Bauer gave him permission, which I doubt.

[ScottBattram]

Boxer, get over it! If Paul and Sean do not want mask wars to continue, I think it could be cleared up pretty quickly by just removing a certain member who seems to always show up in the mask threads, and only seems to offer slams against certain people and manufacturers whom there obviously is some sort of jealousy to-wards. Unless you are directly affected monetarily by people like Tony, Myself or ******* why do you even care?