Mask knowledge would others on the board like to know more???

[c0nquistad0rian]

Originally Posted by abuck

kicksave-

When a company doesn't disclose what materials they use to make the masks nor the process by which they do it (other than the industry standard methods of vacuum bagging or lay ups), they're merely trying to protect their business interests. A lot of what they do and use is secret because once someone else knows, then anyone can exploit it and their value diminishes. Are the materials used classified as top secret? No. However, they're crucial to the business enough that they don't want laypeople (as well as their competition) knowing.

I don't think that Shawn was exactly calling for other manufacturers to disclose their "secrets" so much as he was trying to open up a forum in which us lay people can ask questions and learn the differences between mask materials, lay ups and processes.

It's really upto us to learn about a specific mask before we buy it. But at least, this would give us a platform of knowledge from which we could make an educated decision beyond prices.

[abuck]

Originally Posted by c0nquistad0rian

I don't think that Shawn was exactly calling for other manufacturers to disclose their "secrets" so much as he was trying to open up a forum in which us lay people can ask questions and learn the differences between mask materials, lay ups and processes.

It's really upto us to learn about a specific mask before we buy it. But at least, this would give us a platform of knowledge from which we could make an educated decision beyond prices.

Without a doubt, Shawn wasn't calling for full disclosure. He's put up some great information here and hopefully a trend will start where there'll be more useful "guides" rather than forum threads.

My post was in response to the end of his last post:
"You will see a lot of companies say they use a specialty resin, what is it? I don’t mean the brand name as that may be there secret, but at least the type. Epoxy, vinyl ester, polyester, Elmer’s wood glue (yes I am kidding on the last one) (I hope) if they will not say, you have to ask why."
Sorry for being lazy with the quote button. The point I'm trying to make is that they're not going to tell you what they use in order to protect their business so asking why is a moot point.

[c0nquistad0rian]

Originally Posted by abuck

Without a doubt, Shawn wasn't calling for full disclosure. He's put up some great information here and hopefully a trend will start where there'll be more useful "guides" rather than forum threads.

My post was in response to the end of his last post:
"You will see a lot of companies say they use a specialty resin, what is it? I don’t mean the brand name as that may be there secret, but at least the type. Epoxy, vinyl ester, polyester, Elmer’s wood glue (yes I am kidding on the last one) (I hope) if they will not say, you have to ask why."
Sorry for being lazy with the quote button. The point I'm trying to make is that they're not going to tell you what they use in order to protect their business so asking why is a moot point.

Fair enough. Maybe I could pose this question: How are mask resins and materials identifiable?

From my experience with different types of masks (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), I would guess that you can at least distinguish epoxy and non-epoxy resins in that masks with epoxy resins will have a much smoother, cleaner finish, while masks with non-epoxy resins are rougher around the edges, so to speak. Areas of delamination over time, with exposed fibers that aren't coated are also a sign of non-epoxy resin systems.

As I understand it, in addition to being more expensive and difficult to work with, epoxy resins also take much longer to set. These all may be something to inquire about when comparing off the shelf retail masks that are produced in volume to keep up with demand versus a mask from a custom maker with an expected wait time.

In addition to identifying resins, how are other mask materials identifiable? I've heard the term chop or chopped strand glass thrown around before. Is this a type of fiberglass? Where is on the spectrum in terms of quality of materials used?

[c0nquistad0rian]

Another question... (sorry, could not edit last post)

I've also read comments that a mask should not be the same thickness throughout the entirety of the shell. This masks sense as the most protection should probably be placed in the chin and forehead. But, could someone elaborate on this?

[DRE75HABS]

Resin amount is based on glass/fiber used, Hammy. More glass or fiber, more resin. It's a weight ratio that is most commonly used, and I'll agree that the ratio is open to discussion and interpretation, but I go with a 40/60 glass to resin when using polyester resin with basic fiberglass.

Chopped strand matt is a fiberglass that is composed of chopped strands of glass, laid out randomly with a binding agent to form a sheet, as shown below. The strands of glass are not oriented in any particular direction. This is considered on the low end of the fiberglass quality spectrum, but it serves it's purpose as a sturdy fiber when impregnated with resin, and I've seen it used in a variety of masks, especially in backplates.



Conq, you mentioned epoxy taking longer to set. There are different types of hardeners/catalysts that allow more or less working time before the resin gels. There are slow, medium and fast hardners openly available, and these can be even more customized based on the chemical content and where you're getting your resins.

edit: As for uniform thickness, thatwould be fine if it were a panel or piece that needed uniform thickness throughout, but in a mask there are definitely areas that are more prone to impact than others, so it makes sense to not have a balanced ply system. In other words, thicker in the chin, forehead, less in the cheeks, backplate. Makes sense to me!

[kicksave]

Abuck, the protecting there business idea does not hold water. Keeping secret what type of resin be it epoxy or vinyl or polyester is in my opinion more to do with hiding the true level of there mask. Everyone worries about what there leg pads are made of. Is one company using a better or lesser grade of leather or nylon, is the foam low grade. These are things easer to check and know as you see them much easer. But when we get to masks we don’t have a right to know even the basic of what the resin is? It protects the most important part of our body and it seems most worry the least about it. My argument really is in that by keeping it all super secret they can scam the consumer in some ways, and people end up over paying for what they are getting.

[kicksave]

Hambone, it can very depending on the size of the mask but a small mask using half a quart (approximately) with a very large mask using more. When the shell is vacuumed there is special film and material over it that soaks up extra resin, so not all that is mixed and laid down goes into the mask fibers.

[natesdad]

YouTube - How Goalie Masks are Made

[kicksave]

That is an Eddy GT mask being made you can see the fibers used the bulk of the glass is mat (see Dre75HABS picture and description above) it’s a low end glass used to build up thickness fast. The other fiberglass is woven glass looks to be a 6oz plain weave. The yellow patches are Kevlar in a plan weave. The resin looks to be a polyester resin. It could be a thinned vinyl ester resin but not likely as it looks too thin, and the amber hue is too dark the video says epoxy resin but this is not at all true I can say for fact this mask does not have an epoxy. The mask realty should not even use any Kevlar, as it is not designed to be used with polyester resin. Polyester does not make a strong bond with Kevlar. The main resin recommended for Kevlar is Epoxy resin. The whole shell is formed using a compression mold. As can be seen in the video. Some companies use vacuum and a bag. In that process you would only use one part of the mold and have a bag or film cover the mold and suck out the air the bag compresses down and forces out the air and squeezes the layers together until cured.

[kicksave]

Here is how something is vacuum bagged. This is a cello made of carbon fiber, but a mask would be much the same way. The resin in this case looks to be vinyl ester resin.

YouTube - How It's Made - Carbon Fiber Cello (Pt.1)

YouTube - How It's Made - Carbon Fiber Cello (Pt.2)

[drplywood]

Shawn,
you are my hero.
Lets keep this from getting stupid.
Lets keep the dissection of masks general unless absolutely needed.
I think we are all aware of what will happen if someone mentions one mask brand in a positive or negative light in comparison to another.
I have done it and whether I feel my critique was justified all it did was derail the thread.
Lets not let that happen to this thread.

I say we all take a pledge.

I ............(hand over heart) pledge to never derail and cloud this really fantastic thread by trashing a brand of mask I don't like for the sake of trashing it or heaping praise on a brand of mask for the the sole sake of praising it.

My dog just witnessed mine.

I feel like in two pages of posts I have gotten more clean basic understanding of what literally goes into a mask(thanks Shawn and Dre) than a lot of conversations and reading I have done over the last twenty years.
Little things like "maple syrup" as a description make a big difference to this.

Please keep it up.

[kicksave]

If we are lucky Stacey may come on and post some info. The man has 30 plus years in the business, and the board is done a huge disservice if we are not able to gain knowledge of some of what he knows.

He has posted a ton of info in the past that went away in the mask wars. be a real shame to see that happen a second (probably more then that) time. I've been in composites since i was 15 years old and know a lot about the subject.

The goal here is to help make things clear on what goes on what to look for, and how to avoid the widowmaker masks. Just seeing too many goalies in low end head gear in $1500 pads just doesn’t make any sense.

[drplywood]

Originally Posted by kicksave

The goal here is to help make things clear on what goes on what to look for, and how to avoid the widowmaker masks. Just seeing too many goalies in low end head gear in $1500 pads just doesn’t make any sense.

absolutely agreed.
how about a widowmaker that isn't tight so it keeps popping off but a full Vaughn V3 set.
Lost on me.

[hckyguy1]

Originally Posted by drplywood

how about a widowmaker that isn't tight so it keeps popping off but a full Vaughn V3 set.

haha thats a kid i play against to a T. cheap helmet that isnt protective at all for any level with good shooters, yet he has a full custom set of V3's.

On a different note, i really enjoy reading this thread and have learned alot from it, keep it up!

[Neums30]

[quote=c0nquistad0rian;1368342]

From my experience with different types of masks (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), I would guess that you can at least distinguish epoxy and non-epoxy resins in that masks with epoxy resins will have a much smoother, cleaner finish, while masks with non-epoxy resins are rougher around the edges, so to speak. Areas of delamination over time, with exposed fibers that aren't coated are also a sign of non-epoxy resin systems.
QUOTE]

Sorry, but completely incorrect. The type of resin has absolutely nothing to do with the finish. It is just how much time you want to put into a mask that determines how good a finish you get. I have never used anything but polyester resin and my masks are as smooth as glass (inside and out including the edges). The trick to a good finish is priming and sanding, sometimes 5 or six times before painting, wet sanding, then polishing. Never had a mask crack or delaminate either using polyester resin.