Mask knowledge would others on the board like to know more???

[kicksave]

Ok I don’t mean for this to turn into a mask war, however I see so many who know little to nothing about the difference from one mask to another, and with no offence intended to anyone, a lot of “experts” posting what they feel is best to worst with little knowledge of there background. What if anything do they know about composites, or are we just getting opinions.

For something we trust to protect our most important area of our body we leave a lot to trust of others with out knowing what they know.

Does anyone here feel we could build a proper thread of knowledge on the subject, without starting a war that derails and deletes the thread? Does anyone feel it’s a waste of time? Anyone not care what they have on there head, or care to know more on the subject?

[sk2000freak]

I think that's a great idea, Shawn.... even though I am a CWD, I'd like to learn more facts about masks... There need to be some rules though... or else it will turn into a mask war in no time.

[netmonkey]

Yes, please.

I am looking for a new mask and it's giving me as much of a headache as my current mask.

I keep hoping I will find a thread that explains all of the wonderful materials that are used and the pros and cons of the materials. And lists of which masks use which materials. Because maybe, just maybe it wouldn't end up in a "my lid is better than your lid" pissing contest.

I am also hopeful for a cure for cancer.

[LukeD5]

good luck....

[rfalls86]

This is my suggestion...I think if someone could get the build specs of every mask, and then get a few pro's who actually know what they are doing( mask builders for example) and ask them what is the best mixture or best layers to use for masks and strongest material, that would be only the truest way to know. Anything else will become some flame everyones mask contest. Thats just my opinion on this topic.

[c0nquistad0rian]

I love this idea.

Personally, I feel that the a good place to start would be resin systems. Everyone always talks about how many layers of Kevlar and reinforcements, but resins are rarely mentioned.

Shawn, maybe you could start off by spelling out the differences in epoxy, polyester, and vinylester resin systems. Why they might be used (cost, curing times, strength, durability, etc.) and what their differences might be.

Another topic that relates to resin systems could be the lay up of the mask. How a hand laid shells is different than a vacuum mold, pros and cons of those manufacturing set ups and what other types of set ups there may be.

[Lord of the Cage]

kicksave,

Great idea!

Never going to happen!

Too many variables. From materials to production methods all the way down to engineered design. There is a lot of variables to consider.

The other problem is, mask makers. They don't tell you how your mask is made, how it was designed and exactly what grade of materials are used in the product. Maybe you can be the one to let us all in on your side of the world seeing as you make masks for a living.

I have a basic knowledge of mask materials and construction methods. I enjoy masks and do a lot of reading about them, the materials and methods of construction in today's world.

Until I really get deep into it and start experimenting myself it would save me a lot of time, money and effort if you put all you know on the bulletin board so others can follow in your footsteps as well as I. I think it would be a great resource for all of us! I know I am always looking for more knowledge and you might be the best guy for the job.

I think you can read between the lines.

Sometimes it is better to be the sheep.

Lord of the Cage

[kicksave]

Well to start I can give some opinion on what I know from fixing and dissecting other mask brands. Note some areas I may have to be vague, since openly posting about other brands runs the risk of me offending and risking maybe being banned, so I will try to stay civil but answer questions.

First Price is a poor bases for judging a mask brand.
The reason I say this is some of your “entry level” masks and your top end masks are made of the same materials.

To explain a bit on how a mask is generally composed, you have a fiber cloth and a resin used to form the mask shell.
The cloth can be of different types, as can the resins

Starting with just the resins alone;
You have 3 basic types. Polyester, vinyl ester, and Epoxy.

The resin starts as a semi solid liquid (think maple syrup) this is then mixed with a catalyst which causes the resin to heat up thru a chemical reaction and harden into a solid.


Polyester is the cheapest resin at about $12.00-15.00 quart. polyester is one of the oldest resins it’s still the most common in many FRP uses (FRP Fiber Reinforced Plastic)
The down sides to polyester resins is they tend to break down over time and have problems with UV even when UV protections are added also its bonding strength is much lower then the higher end resins.

Next you have vinyl ester resin; at around $20.00-25.00 a quart vinyl ester has a bit more strength over polyester but was mostly designed to address corrosion resistants that polyester resin don’t have. Its bonding strength is around the same maybe a bit more, however it suffers from breakdown as well all be it at a much slower rate. Its shelf life is very short compared to other resins, so old resins used will cause a fail in the bonding and are always a problem.

The top resin is Epoxy; at around $50-75.00 a quart and even up to $100 for the best ones. The impact, bonding strength are on another level then the other resins. Also epoxy resins don’t suffer from the same break down effects. The cost is the first reason many may not use them. (you can blame the Approval groups for some of this).

Another reason is it can be a harder resin to work with. Doing open “lay ups” does not work as well using an epoxy. You need to “bag” and vacuum the form and keep the part at a proper temp well curing.

Bagging or vacuum bagging; means the part (in this case the mask shell) is in a plastic bag (or more to say its mold is) where the air is vacuumed out. This forces the layers of fiber and resin together and forces out the air. Trapped air in the layers would weaken the bond.
A lay up means you are taking the fiber cloth and laying it in or on a mold form covered in resin. Laying several sheets of “wet” cloth together.

If you have read this far good for you. On to fibers.

There are 3 fiber types we are looking at; fiberglass, Carbon fiber and Kevlar (aramid fiber). Of the 3 fibers you have different types of weaves and grades. With fiberglass being the in a great many forms.

Fiberglass is your most common this is as it sounds fibers spun from glass they are very strong and take a beating the only out right down side they have is the weight when compared to the other fibers. The grade of fiberglass cay very some are even designed to take projectile impact. The most common used for masks are mat glass, roving, E glass, and bio directional. As to what is best every mask maker can make a case for is being best. My own opinion is ones used in aerospace applications being the best. The weight of the fibers (this means how thick the cloth sheet is) effects how many layers are used. Some masks can be 4 layered sheets some can be 15 sheets and both will have the same thickness when finished.

With any of the fibers the resin used effects how well the fibers how together.

Next we have Carbon fiber; carbon fiber is a special process where by another fiber is “cooked until it is carbonized (no not like Han Solo he was frozen in carbonite). This forms a more pure carbon that can be formed into fiber sheets.
Right off carbon is not, I repeat not a high impact fiber. It is a rigid fiber that adds stiffness reinforcing to a combining composite. As a stand alone fiber with a proper resin it makes a strong structure that has some impact resistants. However in Sharpe force impacts like those seen in a protective helmet or mask this is a poor choice. It can be hard to explain easy to say it works great for making a wing for an aircraft, which makes some think it is strong. You think well big jumbo jet must be strong it flies thru the air and carries a ton of weight. However if you shot a puck at said wing you could easily crack it or do damage. Anyone ever see how fast the new composite sticks are breaking.

Used in a support role in a mask it can help add stiffness, when used with the best impact fibers.

Next we come to Kevlar (aramid fiber) there are several types or aramid, Kevlar is but one name brand by DuPont. This is by far the best fiber for impact strength, and is also one of the lightest fibers. The major down side to Kevlar is it can be very hard to work with. It is hard to cut in both its dry unlamented form and when laminated. Also hard to drill. This means it requires higher grade tools to work with it. Because of this many do not use a lot of it sticking to using one layer even spot layers in a shell made of fiberglass.

Fiberglass is most times used even if the piece you are making is mostly Kevlar if you want to finish the surface as Kevlar will not finish well. As in a mask where the surface needs to be smooth for painting when you see yellow fuzz in the vents on a mask that is Kevlar think if the surface was not covered by a glass layer. Many times when a mask says full Kevlar they mean one full layer.

Both with Carbon fiber and Kevlar the common types are twill or plan weave.

[evildink]

great info Shawn!

[kicksave]

I forgot to add keep asking questions and if I don’t seem to answer a question point it out to me. I can try to go into detail on some thing again point out what areas. We may even get other mask makers in here to give there side of things.

[DRE75HABS]

Fiberglass can be subcategorized by the weight per square yard in oz, or per square meter in grams. Different weaves are available too, as Shawn mentioned with carbon graphite and aramid, plain weave, 2x2 and 4x4 twill, 8 harness satin, all changing the characteristics of the fiber in it's ability to drape.

This is really a great idea Shawn, and I hope it stays on track. When it comes to masks and the fact that they protect our most valuable asset, everyone should be educated to some degree on what exactly they are putting on their heads.

[Geoff48]

Are there different grades of aramid fiber, or is all aramid fiber of one quality grade? Are there other brands of aramid fiber besides Kevlar and Twaron?

Awsome idea, I know there is at least one other maker here who WANTS people to know about this stuff so they can make an educated purchase. Hopefully some other experts chime in!

[kicksave]

There are different grades. A first grade would be for when it is without flaws really it’s very easy to make sure you use the best stuff buy only first grade in any of the fibers or resin. The fibers can come in different types Kevlar 29 Kevlar 49. Kevlar 49 being the most common for making things like a mask shell, though work well Kevlar 29 is used in body armor.

Other types of aramid; Technora, Vectran, (used in space suits) Nomex, the list goes on and some names people may recognize.
Most are for other applications and really I find Kevlar and Twaron to be the best for making a mask shell. Other fibers used like spectra can work but I myself found them to be lesser results when used. You have to remember a mask needs to hold up to repeated impacts and stay together where something like a piece of body armor gets tossed out after being impacted. It did its job and you get new stuff. Even in the area of head protection the standard is different for a motorcycle then for a goalie mask and both can be made of much the same materials and in much the same way, yet as with body armor one good use and the motor helmet is tossed after that use.

All in all one of the big things I try to point out is the resin used. That alone can separate a number of masks. Same fiber used in 2 different masks same basic lay up used same basic price, but one has a better resin so better value, better mask. How many would know the difference.

You will see a lot of companies say they use a specialty resin, what is it? I don’t mean the brand name as that may be there secret, but at least the type. Epoxy, vinyl ester, polyester, Elmer’s wood glue (yes I am kidding on the last one) (I hope) if they will not say, you have to ask why.
The secret special it’s only used by the military line does not really hold water. I worked in and with all kinds of special stuff and if it’s that secret, trust me they are not just going to put it out for mask making. You need to weed thru all the sales pitch and ask real questions. Your have every right to know what’s on your head. Don’t let anyone make you feel you don’t have a right to know. You’re paying your hard earned dollars for it (or mom and dads). Ask questions!

[hammbone]

How many quarts of resin would go into the average mask?

[abuck]

kicksave-

When a company doesn't disclose what materials they use to make the masks nor the process by which they do it (other than the industry standard methods of vacuum bagging or lay ups), they're merely trying to protect their business interests. A lot of what they do and use is secret because once someone else knows, then anyone can exploit it and their value diminishes. Are the materials used classified as top secret? No. However, they're crucial to the business enough that they don't want laypeople (as well as their competition) knowing.