Talk 'Wrasslin' with Chakal

[Bryan]

Chakal, I agree with every word you wrote in your last couple of long posts, but i think it's a good idea to consider one more point:

Another huge reason for the drop in popularity of pro wrestling is MMA. Any new younger fan that WWE or TNA might be hoping to capture is far more likely to be a UFC fan now. Not that one can't be a fan of both, but once one becomes really familiar with MMA, going back to wrestling seems so "meh". I know that's certainly the case for me. I used to be a huge wrestling fan, now I really don't care. Partly because of the reasons you listed, but mostly because I'd much rather see UFC.

[chakal]

If the WWE had a good product and was entertaining, MMA wouldn't be such a threath. There's no excuses for WWE's lost of interest. McMahon needs to find a way to develop new talents and give them years to mature.

[EvilPepe]

Originally Posted by wyld1

Actually Doink was around many years ago, I liked him, he was a fun personality.

He hasn't been around for a while, must have come back for a special appearance & ended up battling Carlito, like Piper did lately with another new looser Santino.

Yeah, I knew he had been around for sometime. I don't know for sure, but I was under the impression that there have been multiple Doinks?

[chakal]

Originally Posted by EvilPepe

Yeah, I knew he had been around for sometime. I don't know for sure, but I was under the impression that there have been multiple Doinks?

Yes, 2. Matt Borne, the original man behind Doink, was fired for re-occurring drug abuses, eventually leaving the gimmick (after bouncing through a few others) to Ray Apollo. Apollo was a former WWF jobber in the 80's.

[chakal]

We have our biggest event of the year next week, so, as usual, I'm resourcing myself this week-end. I'm watching "old" stuff. Mostly wrestling from the 90's and mid to late 80's. That's the best period to find ideas and details to add to a match to make a good match, a great match. My opponent next week will wrestle his first show since he broke his ankle, so I'm trying to find things to work on that. You know, when somethings real and you can slip it in the storyline, people a buying it and are way more into the match.

So, I was watching old Bret Hart matches. I saw him fight Owen Hart (now dead) and Davey Boy Smith (now dead), Dynamite Kid (now in wheelchair) .

Then, I watched Jake The Snake Roberts fight Ravishing Rick Rude (now dead).

Then put on old stuff from Eddy Guerrero (now dead). What struck me, was the very first match I saw on the DVD. It was on the "When Worlds Collide" PPV in 1994. All 3 major mexican pro-wrestling (lucha libre) uniting for one night, for a memorable PPV. One of the best of all-time. MLL, AAA and IWC, the PPV was supervised by the WCW.

So the match, Eddy Guerrero (dead) teaming with Art Barr (dead) and Louis "Madonna's Boyfriend" Spicolli (also dead). You see where I'm going?

Even if today was great and I found out many things I want to do next week and how I want to tell the story of the match, I feel a bit nostalgic and depress to see how all my teen idols are all dead. They all died before the age of 45, I think Rude was the oldest of the bunch when he died, at 43. Barr died not too long after that PPV, he was 30 I think.

I just needed to share it. So sad.

[geojedi]

I'd love to watch a night of matches with you sometime and listen to the things that you, as an entertainer, look for both good and bad. I think it could be very enlightening to all of us...

Thought. What if you could post a match of yours or some favourite and do like a commentary of the subtleties that the average joe misses out upon?

[chakal]

Originally Posted by geojedi

I'd love to watch a night of matches with you sometime and listen to the things that you, as an entertainer, look for both good and bad. I think it could be very enlightening to all of us...

Thought. What if you could post a match of yours or some favourite and do like a commentary of the subtleties that the average joe misses out upon?

Funny because usually, it's the opposite. My non-wrestler friends hate to watch wrestling with me because I analyze too much and I'm telling what's going to happen before it happens. You see, most wrestlers works with patterns and often, I can see things coming before they happen.

But when the match is good, they kind of like it because I can tell them why it's good. Same thing when it's bad. You know, sometimes guys are working hard with no results. Well, that means they forgot to work on some aspect.

My force in the ring is to work with the crowd, but not only between moves or spots, but during the moves and the spots. I mean, if I grab a guy to do a suplex and I know that we're getting at the moment for my opponent to wake up, well, I'll look at the crowd, attract an argument with a fan and bang! I get reversed and get a beating. Then, when I gain back the lead, I make sure to tell that fan to shut up because he's disturbing me. Be sure he'll scream even louder after that and the surrounding people as well.

You see, a little detail that gets the crowd into my match 100% of the time. Try to see this in the WWE now... Nobody (excepts the veteran) does it. Why? They never learned it and they don't have enough experience to have figured it out on their own.

[ScottBattram]

[quote=chakal;1216116]Funny because usually, it's the opposite. My non-wrestler friends hate to watch wrestling with me because I analyze too much and I'm telling what's going to happen before it happens. You see, most wrestlers works with patterns and often, I can see things coming before they happen.
QUOTE]

Much like when Flair would climb to the top turnbuckle, you always knew that 999/1000 times he was going for a toss and landing on his hip!

Although I think he did execute a top rope maneuver a few weeks before his last match!

The King even commented in disbelief!

I saw 2 great matches this afternoon on THE FIGHT NETWORK while building an upper body pad! The first was King Harley Race vs. a young David Von Erich probably circa 1980 or 81 and the second was a great match between Rick Rude and Tommy Rich.
Both matches had to go for a good 20 - 35 minutes.. todays typical match is lucky to last 7 or 8.

Although I must say last nights TNA pay per view was really well done.

BTW, Dusty was the son of a plumber!

[chakal]

Originally Posted by ScottBattram

Much like when Flair would climb to the top turnbuckle, you always knew that 999/1000 times he was going for a toss and landing on his hip!

Although I think he did execute a top rope maneuver a few weeks before his last match!

The King even commented in disbelief!

I saw 2 great matches this afternoon on THE FIGHT NETWORK while building an upper body pad! The first was King Harley Race vs. a young David Von Erich probably circa 1980 or 81 and the second was a great match between Rick Rude and Tommy Rich.
Both matches had to go for a good 20 - 35 minutes.. todays typical match is lucky to last 7 or 8.

Although I must say last nights TNA pay per view was really well done.

BTW, Dusty was the son of a plumber!

Yes you're right about Dusty Rhodes!

But why matches are 7 minutes long? Because people are switching channel when someone holds a hold for more than 10 seconds. So, they have "banned" the rest holds on free TV but they can do those holds on PPV to make longer matches.

Also, most young wrestlers today can't make 20 minutes matches because they don't have any experience in doing it.

[ScottBattram]

Our local guy Derek is lucky to have his matches last 3 minutes! He was on a couple weeks ago vs JBL and the match had to have been over in about 1 - 2 minutes. I assume he is still being punished a little by the brass for showing up on TNA during wrestlemania weekend. That combined with the fact that he is working singles matches while his tag partner is out with an injury... But come on, he even had to loose to Hornswaggle... how bad could it get.,... but hey for a 6 figure payday it cant be all that bad! haha

Its too bad about the short matches, I would rather see a good 10 minute match than a bad 3 minute interview or skit that they seem to be doing alot of now.

[kicksave27]

I met Rowdy Roddy Piper at a horror movie convention (if you haven't seen they live, get it, south park copied part of it for the cripple fight btw). He's smaller than i thought he would be. I'm only 5'9", and piper was maybe 6'. Then again he was noticeably smaller than guys back in the 80's. Really cool guy though.

[thorvonclemson]

My turn,

First off, thanks for all your insights. I followed wrestling for years during the 90's and into the last few years. The WCW/NWO days were probably my favorite.

I would like to ask you a few quesitons. First off, can you elaborate on the Bret Hart situation a little more; specifically how he got "screwed". I followed the story briefly, however I was always curious as to what really happened.

Second, who in your opinion was the physically strongest wrestler ever? I've heard stories about Andre and the Big Show performing huge off-stage feats of strength.. can you comment on this?

How does it feel to be essentially wrestling people, in front of a crowd, in your underwear... I am sure it is something that the pro's come to terms with rather quickly, but have you ever had any reservations about it or did you have to come to terms with it? I mean this with all due respect to the people that do it... I just have always been curious about this topic.

finally, of all the submission moves, which ones are really capable of inflicting pain and which ones looks worse than they actually are? I follow MMA a lot and see some similarities in submissions between mma and wrestling. Is the figure four really that painful?

Thanks in advance.

[chakal]

Originally Posted by thorvonclemson

My turn,

First off, thanks for all your insights. I followed wrestling for years during the 90's and into the last few years. The WCW/NWO days were probably my favorite.

I would like to ask you a few quesitons. First off, can you elaborate on the Bret Hart situation a little more; specifically how he got "screwed". I followed the story briefly, however I was always curious as to what really happened.

Second, who in your opinion was the physically strongest wrestler ever? I've heard stories about Andre and the Big Show performing huge off-stage feats of strength.. can you comment on this?

How does it feel to be essentially wrestling people, in front of a crowd, in your underwear... I am sure it is something that the pro's come to terms with rather quickly, but have you ever had any reservations about it or did you have to come to terms with it? I mean this with all due respect to the people that do it... I just have always been curious about this topic.

finally, of all the submission moves, which ones are really capable of inflicting pain and which ones looks worse than they actually are? I follow MMA a lot and see some similarities in submissions between mma and wrestling. Is the figure four really that painful?

Thanks in advance.

First, Bret Hart's screw job. What happened, First, while Bret was the Champ, McMahon told him he wouldn't renew his contract that was expiring the night of Survivor Series (at midnight) and asked Bret to loose the belt to HBK. Bret and HBK are like Claude Lemieux and Chirs Draper. So Bret refused to loose to Michaels especially in Canada. Don't forget, a year or two before HBK had refused to loose to Bret, so he just forfeit the title saying he has "lost his smile". Bret has a long memory so it was his time to get back at HBK. But weeks before that night in Montreal, Bret signed a multi-million dollar contract with WCW, but he had to finish his duty with WWE before WCW can start using his name.

So, Vince had to find a way to make Bret loose before that Sunday Night at Midnight but Bret refused to loose to Shamrock in Detroit the week before, then didn't want to loose to HBK. Bret's idea was to loose in Ottawa the next day on RAW but what McMahon did'nt liked is that WCW Nitro was starting 1h before RAW and WCW was already set on going on strong with the big news. Big news being Bret joining WCW. McMahon didn't want his competition to announce that they've signed WWF's champion, so he decided to do what we now call the Montreal Screw Job. Vince sworn to Bret he wouldn't do it, but did it.

Second, I don't know who's the strongest, but I can tell you that I've heard about the Road Warriors being able to bend olympic bench press bars.

The most feared wrestler was Haku (Meng or King Tonga). Everybody feared him because he was, in real life, able to kill somebody in 2 seconds. He was strong, agile and quick plus expert in many martial arts. Every locker fights I've heard of, all end with: "Then Haku came in and it stopped". I've talked about it with many veterans and they all told me it was true. Ken Shamrock was also feared, you don't try to too stiff wih him in the ring.

3rd, we're not wearing underwears, it's the wrestling attire. Do you think Olympic swimmers and divers are afraid to go out around the pool wearing a swimming suit? It's the same thing.

Finally, all submission moves are taken from real moves that can hurt. Try them for real and see by yourself!! LOL No don't try it, it hurts for real. What I like about MMA's popularity, is that it's giving more credibility to submissions in pro-wrestling. Now, people are buying armbars as legit moves since people are taping out to them in MMA even if it's not spectacular.

[ScottBattram]

Whats even better about the Montreal Screwjob is what happened after it all ended...

In Brets book he detailed it pretty well (at least his side of the story) He said Michaels was basically crying and hiding from Bret for fear of what he would do to him, the Ref Earl Hebner was escorted right out of the building along with many others in on what was going to happen, I cant remember for sure from the book, but I assume it would have been one of the Briscoes and Pat Paterson. Hart then found McMahon and claims to have "knocked him out, one punch".

It was all really silly when you think about it, Hart was always someone who was loyal to his "sport" he would loose when told to loose, put over people when he was told to put them over, but just the one time he wanted to do something his own way, (which is usually how it works with a veteran like Bret Hart and who was also the title holder) many of the guys today get "creative control" etc.. put into their contracts, so if they don't like something, they don't do it, Bret wasn't like that and McMahon just wouldn't give him the courtesy of letting him leave on his own terms, so they orchestrated the entire plot to dethrone the champion.

At one time, some people in the wrestling world said it was all a "work" with all involved, but I think shortly after the fact those myths were dispelled.

[chakal]

The thing is that McMahon feared Bret would no-show in Ottawa the next day and would appear on WCW Nitro instead, wearing the WWF title belt. Like Allundra Blayze (Madusa) did with the Women's title or like Lex Luger who appeared on nitro while he was wrestling on RAW (RAW was pretaped a week earlier and Nitro was live).

I was there that night, not too far from the ring and it was weird to see. Because we were witnessing the whole LIVE! I knew Bret would never accept to tap out on his own move, especially vs HBK. He would have done it against brother Owen, but not HBK. Then, the ref was put KO before the SharpShooter but got up instantly no-selling the bump. Then, HBK wins the belt but doesn't celebrate and just get the F' out of the ring and run backstage. Same with the ref.

Vince McMahon coming out from the locker room before the finish was weird too. Don't forget, WWF admitting McMahon was the real owner was pretty new. Before, he was "just an announcer". So, the feeling was weird and the atmosphere was heavy in the Bell (Molson back then) Centre. Then Bret started tossing equipment in the crowd for souvenir and start destroying the TV equipment (monitors, sound monitors, cameras, etc). The DJ had a good idea, to play Bret's music in loop until everybody leaves, Bret was cheered like a god during this and he started to hand-spell W-C-W in the air and everybody was screaming the letters with him.

I'm watching Bret Hart's DVD right now and Bret was AMAZINGLY strong!! I never noticed it before. He's wrestling Undertaker and I've never seen Taker getting tossed around and lifted like Bret does. Taker isn't too much into taking big bumps and he's not always helping his opponent when he needs to get lifted in the air, but Bret makes him move like I've never seen anybody move him before.

Another match, Davey Boy Smith was wrestling like a brick (in wrestler terms, it means a guy that doesn't help you much to lift him, like I sais about Taker above) and Bret throws him around and toss him like if it was Rey Mysterio!