It's Beginning to Look a lot Like...pc holidays

[wortchillergoal]

It seems to me that this situation, religious symbols on public property, got handled the wrong way. The court having to make a ruling just drew lines in the sand for all religions to be unhappy with one another.

The ruling should have been that symbols of a religious holiday may go up on public property as long as every religion or faith got equal opportunity. Then all public places could have announced due to budget and time constraints they have elected not to put up any religious displays.

Problem solved.

[Threeleggedyoyo]

Originally Posted by sloth2946

The Establishment Clause of the Constitution protects the freedom to practice religion. It also has been interpreted, and repeatedly so, to mean that there is indeed a necessary separation between religion and government as well as public areas.

However the caveat to the Establishment Clause is that not only does it protect religious freedoms, but it protects the people FROM religion should they not want it shoved down their throats.*

*except when the religion at hand is atheism or religious apathy.

~Brent

[Steve L]

In second grade (amazing I an remember back that far) I got in trouble for telling a classmate that there was no Santa Claus, which made them cry. I had to sit in class while the teacher explained to the whole class that I was just saying that because I was mad that, as a Jew, I knew Santa wouldn't come to our house.

Almost wish a teacher had done that to my son. The lawsuit might have paid for a few semesters at his overly expensive Catholic high school now!!


Oh well...

Deck us all with Boston Charlie
Walla Walla Wash, and Kalamazoo
Nora's Freezin' on the trolley
Swaller Dollar Cauliflower,
and Ally Garoo!

[goalerjones]

Originally Posted by Quart of Beer

...Then to show their ability, they start singing all the songs they know. I helped them phonetically as best I could and before you know, about four or five local kids (all Muslims), gathered round and joined in.
Imagine me (with a head full of beer Chang and Mekong whiskey, the local rocket fuel) and about ten people from different worlds and religions, singing Here Comes Santa Claus, Silent Night, and Good King Wenceslas (that's a tough one in Thai) at the top of our lungs on a gorgeous sweaty 95 degree sunny tropical day. From the mouths of innocence.....

That sounds awesome!!!...

also, to address another question

Aren't most Christian holidays in some fashion related to Pagan ones?

By and large the answer is yes.

Easter was the festival Ishtar which involved symbolic practices that we see now-eggs, rabbits, etc. Christmas is not the actual birthday for Jesus but some scholarship places the "marraige" of the Mystery Babylon cult and the Christian faith (Emporer Constantine, and the one immediately following him) that made the outward adornments -mistletoe, the evergreen tree, wrapped presents, etc intermingled.

And, just in case you all thought I'd lost my sense of perspective and humor...here's a Jim Gaffigan link re: holidays- MilkandCookies - Jim Gaffigan: Christmas and Easter

[Foxton]

Wait did goaler just make a post about christianity that wasn't him viewing the world through his rose colored glasses?

[sloth2946]

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

*except when the religion at hand is atheism or religious apathy.

~Brent

Actually...atheism is not a religion and religious apathetic people just don't care about it.

[CKeelty]

True, but "there is no God" is just as valid a religious expression as "God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and whatnot.

As for Halloween, the Festival of Samhain was NOT Christian. The shortening of "All Hallow's Eve" into "Halloween" follows the invention of "All Hallow's Eve" in the first place to assimilate the traditional pagan Festival of Samhain so as to co-opt pagans into their faith, teach existing Christians that the pagans were really Christians to begin with, and just generally pursue their hegemony, which is the real purpose of any organized religion anyway.

The fact that they gave it a different name doesn't suddenly make it a Christian tradition. The date, the belief (that the worlds of living and dead "overlapped" for a night) and the practices were all pagan in origin.

[Threeleggedyoyo]

Originally Posted by sloth2946

Actually...atheism is not a religion and religious apathetic people just don't care about it.

Nonsense. These are both systems of belief. And when we won't allow people to practice other systems in public life, they're being forced on people.

~Brent

[Magician]

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

Nonsense. These are both systems of belief. And when we won't allow people to practice other systems in public life, they're being forced on people.

~Brent

Not allowing a public institution to promote a religion is not equal to atheism. An abscence of belief is not a belief.

When the supreme court has written beside "E Pluribus Unum" the phrase "Deus est mortuus", then you may have a point. And I would support you in tearing that down.

[spidergoalie]

In all honesty, if I were a Christian I would be far more upset at how Christmas IS celebrated, than how it is not.
Christmas is a marketing tool in today's world, not a religious observance.

[Sprawl]

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

Nonsense. These are both systems of belief. And when we won't allow people to practice other systems in public life, they're being forced on people.

~Brent

wrong and right at the same time

Atheism in it's strictest sense is nothing more than "no belief in god".

i'm atheist. I however don't believe in taking away your belief (though you could question it to learn more). celebrate ALL you want. celebrations are great!

however, in your celebration, dont forget you're not the only ones in this world and at least show respect to the others.

if you're a catholic school for example. have a christmas party! But if you're a public school with Jewish people, christians, muslims, hindu and everything else under the sun. Isn't it a little one sided and ignorant to have a "CHristmas Party".

The funny thing about Santa clause and "Ho Ho Ho". look up it's origins. It has nothing to do with the nature of the holiday. it's another "Made up" idea. I argue that any real person who believse in the religious aspect of it would "throw away" the false commercialization of the holidays and bring them back to what they are.

Now, if you'd like to celebrate with the trees and the lights, and the gifts with a jolly fat man, Lets remove it from Christmas and make it "Family Holiday". something completely non religious in which everyone can benefit. Because Quite honestly thats what the current version of Christmas is.

[CKeelty]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

The funny thing about Santa clause and "Ho Ho Ho". look up it's origins. It has nothing to do with the nature of the holiday. it's another "Made up" idea. I argue that any real person who believse in the religious aspect of it would "throw away" the false commercialization of the holidays and bring them back to what they are.

Now, if you'd like to celebrate with the trees and the lights, and the gifts with a jolly fat man, Lets remove it from Christmas and make it "Family Holiday". something completely non religious in which everyone can benefit. Because Quite honestly thats what the current version of Christmas is.

The fault with this argument is that it assumes Christmas originated as being about Christ. Exactly like Halloween, the Christmas tradition was originally co-opted from pagan rituals (the "winter festival" of many faiths, combined with Ishtar gods' birthdays), given a Christian name and a fanciful Christian origin ("We're celebrating the birth of Jesus! Nevermind that we're a quarter of a year off!"). Winter festivals were essentially a celebration of free time and leisure (as there was less daylight, and therefore less time available to work) and merrymaking. While the tradition of giving gifts appears to have Christian origins, Christmas trees, parties, merrymaking and goodwill all predate Christian revisionism. Father Christmas originally had nothing to do with presents, he was just a guy who really liked to have a good time. If he brought anything in a sack over his back, it was beer.

Aside from the nativity, the trip to Church, and the presents, everything about Christmas predates the Christians. Now I'm not arguing that we should all go back to being pagans - I am a fan of Christmas as it is (or, let's say, as it was ten years ago before it got all bitter). I just hate hearing the BS Christian argument about "the reason for the season."

[Sprawl]

there's a guy on my street who in christmas lights has "Jesus is the reason for the season" acrross his garage every year.

I chuckle at it.

I'm all for family time. CLoseness of relatives and seeing loved ones. There aren't enough excuses in the year for people to get together like that.

I just wish they'd drop the bull**** pretence of religion about it and maybe scale back on the overabundance of commercialism.

And it's not only Christmas thats bad. As someone of Jewish upbriging. Chanuka has gotten down right stupid. It's even adopting things not from it's own origin.

The Jewish Tradition on Chanuka is to give Coins, or Chanuka Gelt. Now thats translated to "presents" and it's become just like christmas. Give gifts. There are now "Chanuka Lights". Granted the idea of lights is more in line with why Chanuka is celebrated (Festival of lights), However it wasn't the same idea. There are even some families i've seen doing a Chanuka tree!

whats next? Chanuka Harry is going to come and eat your latkas?

[goalieworld35]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

if you're a catholic school for example. have a christmas party! But if you're a public school with Jewish people, christians, muslims, hindu and everything else under the sun. Isn't it a little one sided and ignorant to have a "CHristmas Party".

No. The time of season is call "Christmas", so any party celebrating that season would be name as such. No one is disrespecting anyone unless they feel compelled to feel disrespected, much less high schoolers who can give a **** about the word prior to "party".

I can gaurantee no one here would be offended or refuse to go to their company's "Christmas party" because they know they will turning away free liquor and food, and the possibilty of "hooking" up with someone from the company.

****, I will bet that no one here will turn down their Christmas bonus because it has the word "Christmas" attached to it.

The hypocrisy in that is disrespectful.

Its become pathetic when people get offended by any word thats been around for a long time and never ever offended anyone before. Its really pathetic when people need to reach the bottom of the barrel and make up things in order to make an argument of how they have been disrespected.

Adults, at times, really need to learn from young children and look at the world through their eyes.

[Sprawl]

actually the time of the seasons ISN'T Crhistmas season. it's December

and CHRISTMAS the word itself is DIRECTLY related to CHRIST which is a religious meaning.

CHRIST means "MESSIAH", "annointed one" or "son of god" which would actually be a direct and insulting attack at the jewish belief (amongst others)

to call this the "Christmas season" you're saying that this season is about Jesus.

I don't celebrate the Christmas season. I Celebrate the Holiday season as there are other religions who have holidays here. As i mentioned, Jewish faith has Chanuka and has for thousands of years.

so in a sense, saying the christmas season is a way of saying it's YOURS and not mine or others.

btw. i'm just making points, call it what youwill. i'll call it what i will. But it can STILL be deemed oppressive to some.