It's Beginning to Look a lot Like...pc holidays

[mikey_j]

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

*except when the religion at hand is atheism or religious apathy.

~Brent

Just where does the government say that Jehovah/vishnu/FSM doesn't exist?

[CKeelty]

I don't think it's "one sided" or "ignorant," but I do think that in schools it walks a fine line. Christmas has become secularized to the point where many public schools consider it safe to have "Christmas parties," and I don't disagree with that. I'm disturbed, however, that the people who vehemently insist we call it a "Christmas" and not a "Holiday" Party are almost always the same people insisting we remember that "Christmas is about Christ." You can't have it both ways - it's either a secular celebration that's appropriate for a public school, or it's a religious holiday and such a party violates the Establishment Clause. Take your pick.

I will agree with the statements I've seen here (sloth and gworld, yours come to mind) that everyone needs to be more tolerant and stop being OFFENDED by everything. There are a LOT of Christians in America, so as every American freely expresses his or her religion, you're going to hear a lot more about Christianity than any other religion. In theory, religious minorities would support this because it's a reflection of their own religious liberty, but too often they choose to take offense at it, which is sort of counter-intuitive.

As we said in another thread, diversity means that you're going to be exposed to a lot of people different from you, and tolerance means that you tolerate it. As a Jew or a Muslim or an atheist, you're not being oppressed every time someone sings a song about Jesus or wishes you a "Merry Christmas."

[CKeelty]

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

Nonsense. These are both systems of belief. And when we won't allow people to practice other systems in public life, they're being forced on people.

~Brent

Brent, I'm not clear on your argument. Are you saying that the government IS atheist, and atheism is a religion, and therefore the government is endorsing a religion? Or are you saying that the government favors [generic religion] and that acknowledging any or all religions is oppressive to atheists?

[goalieworld35]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

But it can STILL be deemed oppressive to some.

Sprawl,

Thats a bit of a stretch. Why would anyone feel "oppress"? Why would you think that may be the case?

Chanuka is celebrated, Qwanza (sp?), is celebrated probably other religions are celebrated that I may not be aware of. So why is "Christmas" perceived to be as oppressive?

Why would a Jewish person want to feel insulted because of the word "Christ" in Christmas? Have we become so overly sensitive that we feel the need to be #1. Wouldnt that be contradicting one self?

I don't feel insulted that the Jews are still waiting for the second coming, so why should they feel insulted that, as a Catholic, my God has already come.

We really need to be concern about our own individual religion, what ever that may be, and not be concern about others that you don't know about or much less care about.

The Jews could care less about Catholism much like Catholism could care less about the Jehova (sp?) witness.

[Sprawl]

oh no. Call it whatever you will

BUT

dont tell me

"this is the christmas season, why can't you just accept that"


think about how that sounds from the meaning? call it your christmas season all lyou want. But dont expect jewish people, or Muslims or others to.

By stating the above, you're telling me I'm to accept that this is the Christian season and that I'm part of it.

that is oppressive. This is YOUR christmas season. Not mine

This is my Holiday SEason. Chanuka Season. Winter Season. Bend over and spend season. But it isn't my season to celebrate Christ.

[mikey_j]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

oh no. Call it whatever you will

BUT

dont tell me

"this is the christmas season, why can't you just accept that"


think about how that sounds from the meaning? call it your christmas season all lyou want. But dont expect jewish people, or Muslims or others to.

Well, it's nominally the Christmas season even if you don't really believe that it marks the anniversary of Jebus' birth.

That's why I call it Christmas. Because that's what it is called. Not because I believe.

[Sprawl]

Originally Posted by mikey_j

Well, it's nominally the Christmas season even if you don't really believe that it marks the anniversary of Jebus' birth.

That's why I call it Christmas. Because that's what it is called. Not because I believe.

Because you bought into the Maretting and commercialization of it

i'd rather take the religious nuts. At least they have a valid argument

[goalieworld35]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

oh no. Call it whatever you will

BUT

dont tell me

"this is the christmas season, why can't you just accept that"


think about how that sounds from the meaning? call it your christmas season all lyou want. But dont expect jewish people, or Muslims or others to.

By stating the above, you're telling me I'm to accept that this is the Christian season and that I'm part of it.

that is oppressive. This is YOUR christmas season. Not mine

This is my Holiday SEason. Chanuka Season. Winter Season. Bend over and spend season. But it isn't my season to celebrate Christ.

Where did I say you must accept it? I think that is what you, and many others want to hear. All Im saying is stop making a big deal/issue out of nothing, a word, that as you so stated, no longer has a religious meaning since its all commercialized as is Chanuka.

So I ask you, whats the big deal since in essence, most if not all holidays are now commercialized? Its more a word now than meaning.

[Sprawl]

So, lets continue to use words like "Kike" and "Negro" and what not till their meaning is completely absolved therefore no one will ever be offended again?

i don't get my panties (thong really) in a knot over it because i just chuckle at the commercialization of it and let you have your season. I will tend to ignore people when they start slipping the christmas word in.

As the majority, you don't tend to see it from the little guys side. "christmas signs everywhere. it's a constant reminder that hey, you're not one of us. so to speak and that this season belongs to you and the rest of you either can buy into it, or go back to your hiding.

this idea of "understanding" GOES both ways. we have to understand that it is your right to celebrate your christmas season, as well as you have to understand why we dont celebrate your christmas season.



So when I throw a "HOLIDAY" party this year, Dont get your panties in a knot that it's not a christmas party and there are Dreidal's to play with but no Christmas tree

[Goaliedad]

Christmas is really a pagan holiday that was co-opted by early Christians in attempt to assimulate the older pagan religions. The winter solstice was celibrated long before Jesus was born. Jesus was born in September. Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods. Modern day Christmas is just the result of Christians trying to assimulate the pagans. As a Christian I celibrate Christmas whenever the Hell I feel like it. Oh and I call on Oden when I have to fight.

[CKeelty]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

oh no. Call it whatever you will

BUT

dont tell me

"this is the christmas season, why can't you just accept that"


think about how that sounds from the meaning? call it your christmas season all lyou want. But dont expect jewish people, or Muslims or others to.

By stating the above, you're telling me I'm to accept that this is the Christian season and that I'm part of it.

that is oppressive. This is YOUR christmas season. Not mine

This is my Holiday SEason. Chanuka Season. Winter Season. Bend over and spend season. But it isn't my season to celebrate Christ.

I don't think he was saying you have to be a part of it, I think he was saying "this is what we do at this time of year, and there's a WHOLE F*ING LOT OF US, so you're probably going to be exposed to a lot of celebrating. Oh, and we're not going to keep it down because you're not one of us."

There's nothing wrong (IMO, or legally) with Christmas being the giant lumbering juggernaut of a holiday that it's become. A lot of people like Christmas. There's a LOT of money in Christmas.

Is it wrong to have Christmas parties in school? I call it a gray area - depends on exactly what form they take. Is it wrong that we have government holidays for Christmas? Well yeah, probably, but it's up to you if you want to fight that. Is it wrong that the stores and malls and private homes are covered in lights and decorations? No, definitely not. That's free expression of religion, holmes.

Now, is it wrong for Christians to insist that everyone else say "Merry Christmas?" Yeah, I think it is. Is it wrong for Christians to bitch and moan about how their holiday, that becomes the sole purpose for life itself for a month and a half every year, isn't being celebrated just right? Yeah, I think it is. Is it wrong for them to bully and brow-beat stores and other people because there's not enough of their holy savior included? Yeah, I think it is.

But it's not wrong for them to call it Christmas, or to wish you Merry Christmas, or to put a nativity scene on their lawn. That's their religion, and for you to insist they not celebrate it, THAT is oppressive.

[CKeelty]

Originally Posted by Goaliedad

Christmas is really a pagan holiday that was co-opted by early Christians in attempt to assimulate the older pagan religions. The winter solstice was celibrated long before Jesus was born. Jesus was born in September. Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods. Modern day Christmas is just the result of Christians trying to assimulate the pagans. As a Christian I celibrate Christmas whenever the Hell I feel like it. Oh and I call on Oden when I have to fight.

I bet your cries to Odin just scare the bullies right off, don't they?

[Sprawl]

kellty, thats my argument.

celebrate it how you want. put up your lights and scenes. I get a chuckle over it.

But as a kid in public school (Grade 1 - 8 lets say). who is studying a faith different than Christianity, and you have to go to the class Christmas party, in which there is no other representation of other groups. I think there is absolutely every right for the child or their family to say "HOLD UP!".

if you're not going to represent every group present, than don't represent any. this same goes for Government legislatures, company parties. or what not. it's pure ignorance in that case to ignore everyone else.

you say "let me call it what i want"
i say "fine, let me call it what i want and celelbrate it how i want"
you say "fine, but at least call it christmas with us"

... see why its' a little.. uggg. frustrating? and you know what. comming up to me and saying "MERRY CHRISTMAS" is insulting.

i'm not really going to tell you to stuff it. cause thats just your ignorance showing. How woudl you feel if when i greeted you i said "Happy Chanuka" instead?

[CKeelty]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

kellty, thats my argument.

celebrate it how you want. put up your lights and scenes. I get a chuckle over it.

But as a kid in public school (Grade 1 - 8 lets say). who is studying a faith different than Christianity, and you have to go to the class Christmas party, in which there is no other representation of other groups. I think there is absolutely every right for the child or their family to say "HOLD UP!".

if you're not going to represent every group present, than don't represent any. this same goes for Government legislatures, company parties. or what not. it's pure ignorance in that case to ignore everyone else.

you say "let me call it what i want"
i say "fine, let me call it what i want and celelbrate it how i want"
you say "fine, but at least call it christmas with us"

... see why its' a little.. uggg. frustrating? and you know what. comming up to me and saying "MERRY CHRISTMAS" is insulting.

i'm not really going to tell you to stuff it. cause thats just your ignorance showing. How woudl you feel if when i greeted you i said "Happy Chanuka" instead?

Oh.

Well..

Yeah.

If you're talking government (public school) then I agree with you. I think calling it a "Christmas Party" is pretty okay in general, but if someone complains you kinda have to back down.

As for the "Happy Chanuka?" I'd be a little confused because I'm not under the impression Chanuka is a particularly happy time, but I'd appreciate the sentiment.

On that note... In my younger more naive days, I once wished someone a very well-intentioned "Happy Yom Kippur!"

Heh.

[goalieworld35]

Originally Posted by Sprawl

So, lets continue to use words like "Kike" and "Negro" and what not till their meaning is completely absolved therefore no one will ever be offended again?

i don't get my panties (thong really) in a knot over it because i just chuckle at the commercialization of it and let you have your season. I will tend to ignore people when they start slipping the christmas word in.

As the majority, you don't tend to see it from the little guys side. "christmas signs everywhere. it's a constant reminder that hey, you're not one of us. so to speak and that this season belongs to you and the rest of you either can buy into it, or go back to your hiding.

this idea of "understanding" GOES both ways. we have to understand that it is your right to celebrate your christmas season, as well as you have to understand why we dont celebrate your christmas season.



So when I throw a "HOLIDAY" party this year, Dont get your panties in a knot that it's not a christmas party and there are Dreidal's to play with but no Christmas tree

Sprawl,

Your thongs are definitely tied up that your way of thinking is all warped .

To make the analogy of the word Christmas to kike, negro and what not is absurd.

Although you may not think it, you really are letting a word take control over your way of thinking and thats unfortunate.

Im happy that you will ignore people when they are letting the word Christmas in. Maybe you will ignore your "Christmas" bonus check when your boss is trying to hand it to you.

Its unfortunate, though, that you allow yourself to feel the whole "majority/minority", but then again I know a thing 2 about being an "actual" minority but I don't let that consume me or dictate the way I live my life.

And I do understand your reasons for not celebrating christmas, but again, I don't take that as an insult.

Oppressive???? I still cant get over that word much like kike and negro.