American Manliness

[Timberwoof]

Originally Posted by darthlampe

There isn't as big of a need for lumberjacks, we have machines. We don't have to be as manly, but that doesn't mean the idea of manliness is lost.

So what's "manly"? How should men behave? How should we not behave? Why?

[JediGoalie30]

Originally Posted by GoalieBilly

So i turn on the tv and it was on channel 26 which is cnn news or fox news. I'm not usually a news guy, but the headline on the bottom of the screen read "Is American Idol an Example of the effemination of American Men?" Neil Cavuto was the guy arguing that it was. I don't watch American Idol but they were showing clips of these guys and several of them look like girls. Cavuto made the point that there is no real male role model anymore. There were some annoying women (not being sexist, they were annoying) newscasters arguing how men should be effemintate or "sensitive" and it was making me angry and frustrated. I've had it with this sensitive and effeminite garbage. I completely agree with Cavuto who said that we need a change.
I recently wrote an essay for my history class on the creation of the American identity on the western frontier, attempting to prove Turner's frontier thesis (Fredrick Jackson Turner's Frontier thesis was that a uniquely american identity was created on the western frontier). Some of thesse qualities include being rugged, independent, hard working , and having a sense of pride. In the conclusion of my essay I argued that since the end of the cold war (particullarly 1980-1991) we have lost this sense of our American Identity.
This example of effemination is just one example of this.
We need to change our ways

Let me know what you think

Join the Army...they let you carry a machine gun. That's manly, right?

Oh, and none of the guys here look like girls.

[RCS]

The part of this whole issue that confuses me the most is the interactions between men and women. I consider myself a pretty old-fashioned, conservative type of guy (I'm definitely not the epitome of "manliness", but I'm further to the manly side than the unmanly side...I think...okay, I'm going to shut up about THAT now!), and it weirds my girlfriend out that I open doors for her (car, building, etc.). I think she's getting used to it, but I'm constantly bombarded with "you know, you don't have to do that".

Yes, I know I don't have to do that. But it's the polite and gentlemanly thing to do, so I will continue to do it.

I think a lot of men are confused in this regard. There's a fine line between being a gentleman and being a "man" that a lot of people nowadays seem to have some issues with wrapping their minds around. Women want to be independant, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can't always have it both ways. If you want independance, then you can't expect men (who admittedly are pretty simple creatures) to be able to divine when and how it's okay to be "manly" and when it's proper to respect a woman's independance. It's difficult to figure that out...since a lot of the time it depends on context and the absence/presence of other people.

That's what confuses me, as a "manly" man.

I guess I just think there are some things that men will always be better at than women, and vice versa. Men are naturally large and stronger physically (in general), and tasks of that nature will generally fall to them. Not that women can't do a lot of them as well, but really, do we have to have complete equality? Then what does it mean to be a man or a woman?

[wortchillergoal]

Real mean play goalie thus goalies are real men.

[mikey_j]

Originally Posted by Timberwoof

So what's "manly"? How should men behave? How should we not behave? Why?

The only time you're allowed to cry on the ice is if:

1) You've just lost the Stanley Cup;
2) You got hit in the nards by an Al MacInnis slapshot.

Cry at any other time, and you are not manly.

[RCS]

Let me add a couple thoughts to what I said.

In my family, my dad did most of the cooking. I enjoy it and do quite a bit of cooking myself (made a nice V-Day dinner a couple weeks ago!). I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

At the same time, know when to draw the line. If I offer to assist you in opening that jar of pickles because it's obviously causing you an issue, don't throw a fit. Besides, odds are I won't be able to open it either.

[EvilPepe]

Originally Posted by Timberwoof

I disagree with the idea that sensitivity is exclusively feminine and that for a man to be sensitive means he's effeminate. This aspect of certain ideas of masculine and feminine rob men and women both of whole ranges of emotions that we are all capable of. Who says men can't be sensitive to the emotions of others—doesn't that turn every man into a careless inconsiderate brute? Who says women can't be assertive—doesn't that turn every woman into a simpering whining servant? What a sucky life that would be!...


...I think that primitive and simplistic ideas of what feminine and masculine are artificially limit what we can "legitimately" do. Such restrictive roles upset when we encounter people who aren't limited by them. I'm reminded of one of my favorite characters from Firefly: Kaywinnit Lee Frye is the mechanic on a small interplanetary cargo ship. She usually wears overalls and engine grime. Does that maker her unfeminine? I don't think so... you should see her in the episode "Shindig".

Well said.

Any description of the masculine and feminine (outside of a physical one) is going to be based upon the given group's social norms for each. There is no trait that is either solely masculine, or solely feminine. By ascribing certain traits as being "male" or "female" we are binding ourselves through language to those ideas. Sure, you may not THINK that there is anything wrong with girls playing with GI Joes, but by even saying such you are bringing attention to the fact that it is not a traditionally accepted toy for a female to play with. RCS mentions that his dad did the cooking on Valentine's Day. Simply saying this betrays how we think about domestic life in regards to gender (not picking on you RCS, just using it as an example of what I am getting at).

The problem is that you have the "experts" like Julia Wood who are to willing to point these things out, but then are guilty of doing it themselves, and seem to make little effort to do otherwise. It really is a hard subject to learn about.

I dunno, I always considered a "real man" to be the one who can critically recognize what makes them a "man", and how they may be limited and/or privileged by it (same description for a "real woman").

Sorry for the rant - just happened to have had a similar discussion a couple days ago

[biguglygoalie]

the automatic transmission was the first step, american idol was the last in the wussification of america... you know its all an elaborate plan for the crab people to come up and take over...

[RCS]

RCS mentions that his dad did the cooking on Valentine's Day. Simply saying this betrays how we think about domestic life in regards to gender (not picking on you RCS, just using it as an example of what I am getting at).

No offense taken. Except the fact that you missed that *I* cooked Valentine's Day dinner...

[EvilPepe]

Originally Posted by RCS

No offense taken. Except the fact that you missed that *I* cooked Valentine's Day dinner...

Doh! Sorry.

[secross2]

I think whats happening is the media shows all the panzy male stuff and the kids/young adults are unfortunately so into the media and tech stuff that they assume that's the norm. The work force went from tradesmen to tech. However, if you look at the economy there is a higher need for tradesman then tech jobs at the current moment. I think like everything else it will run it's course.

One other note, I think a lot of Americans are brought up feeling like they should feel guilty for things from the past. (which they had nothing to do with.) Or because other 's disagree with something they feel they have to jump on board. (I'm not talking about any current things going on.) But stuff like reparations for/to whom ever, internment etc. Things were done in the past and thats just how it is. They were done that way for a reason and feeling on way or another isn't going to change it.
Mybe we should protest the protesters. I caqn understand what I'm trying to post internally. It may not make sense written.

[darthlampe]

Originally Posted by goalerjones

Just ask all those aspiring waiters and waitresses in Hollywood....

Not sure what you mean...

So what's "manly"? How should men behave? How should we not behave? Why?

You're misunderstanding. Should behave is a lot different than the archetype. I'm not saying men should act manly at all or that they have to. You should be able to act/behave however the hell you want to.

[Foxton]

This thread makes me giggle uncontrollably.

[secross2]

giggles are good, more people should do that..

[Foxton]

Originally Posted by secross2

giggles are good, more people should do that..

Isn't it supposed to be girls giggle while guys chuckle?