American Manliness

[EvilPepe]

Originally Posted by Timberwoof

"Sexism"

I'm not sure what the first part of what you wrote means. As near as I can tell, it means that if a man thinks he's acting like a man, he is. But I'm not sure you really mean that.

It's interesting how sure we appear to be to be about the meaning of "acting like a man" but when I ask specifically what that means, no one can come up with any answers. How about we start with the men on American Idol and list what about them is not "manly"? Maybe you men could contribute to a list of things that are "manly" and that therefore women should be prohibited form doing.

Sexism isn't quite what I was going for. This kind of goes beyond that as they are the things that we internalize at a young age and help form our gender identity. Sexism is usually more negative. It is discriminating on the basis of something, not becoming something. Granted, a potato-potahto argument could be made here. *shrug*

"As near as I can tell, it means that if a man thinks he's acting like a man, he is. But I'm not sure you really mean that. "

Thats pretty much it, with one addition - he has to understand why and how he is acting that way.

As far as your suggestion for a list, that kind of speaks to my point. I have to wonder how often people will reflect on what they consider "manliness" to be, as it probably seems self evident to many (most). I don't think you will find many willing to admit that there are things they think men should do that woman should be prohibited from doing. I would be curious to see what some would come up with though.

There is certainly no shortage of values that society in general seems to deem as being "for men" and "for women". Compete vs. Cooperate. Tough vs. Sensitive. Assert vs. Request. ect...

[Foxton]

Originally Posted by EvilPepe

Sexism isn't quite what I was going for. This kind of goes beyond that as they are the things that we internalize at a young age and help form our gender identity. Sexism is usually more negative. It is discriminating on the basis of something, not becoming something. Granted, a potato-potahto argument could be made here. *shrug*

One thing, gender identity is formed as you form before birth. What you're talking about is more of a gender role.

Second thing sexism is more of intentional and unintentional. Either through ignorance or willful ignorance. Everyone has a little of it and it's not very cut and dry.

Third I think it's rather impossible to say "these are manly actions and these aren't" So much is based off of how society impacts your viewpoint. You can make generalizations but there will always be exceptions.

[EvilPepe]

Originally Posted by Foxton

One thing, gender identity is formed as you form before birth. What you're talking about is more of a gender role.

Second thing sexism is more of intentional and unintentional. Either through ignorance or willful ignorance. Everyone has a little of it and it's not very cut and dry.

Third I think it's rather impossible to say "these are manly actions and these aren't" So much is based off of how society impacts your viewpoint. You can make generalizations but there will always be exceptions.

Your right on the terminology (but you knew that )

I think you are right about some sexism being inevitable. BUT, unless you are acting a certain way (male) simply because it ISN'T something else (female) and therefor superior, I don't think you are being sexist.

[Foxton]

Originally Posted by EvilPepe

Your right on the terminology (but you knew that )

I think you are right about some sexism being inevitable. BUT, unless you are acting a certain way (male) simply because it ISN'T something else (female) and therefor superior, I don't think you are being sexist.

I'm pretty good with some terminology.

Acting male, because it isn't female, and is superior would be sexist
Acting male because that is how they are and not because it would be superior wouldn't be.

Plenty of people have the problem of seeing their way as the best or right. Usually putting themselves above others or being superior. Forgetting of course that nature is a spectrum and very few things are right or wrong and that one way doesn't automatically invalidate another.

[darthlampe]

The archetype of a manly man can differ slightly person to person, but generally these are the qualities he embodies (Let there be a note that these qualities are NOT specific to him at all, and I must reiterate that I'm not saying only manly men have these qualities about them, or even that these qualities are necessarily good, etc. etc. etc.):

Solitary. Doesn't need anyone else to survive, can do things on his own. Whether this be fix the plumbing, the car, to being able to survive in the woods with nothing but a shoe lace and pack of gum, this element is apparent. Today, this is definitely applied to tradesmen, and more generally to anyone who has a job and can support himself.

Courage. The ability to not back down. Whether you're looking death in the face, or you're not saying no for an answer for that promotion that you deserve. Manly men, and I think this is a quality that is valued in men and women in general, can't be cowardly and have to show braveness.

Strength. I think this can be a broad one. Either as emotional strength, in not having a breakable will or physical strength. Generally when I think of the archetype, I think the look falls into this. Generally not a small man, has size to him in one way or another. If it's emotional, this is usually also shown through a lack of emotion, or covering up their feelings. Maybe not insensitive, but certainly don't have their heart on their sleeves.

All these values are very subjective for each individual obviously, so there's lots of room for different people to have these characteristics, and I think that's a good thing.

I think wikipedia has more info on this and more eloquent than me about this subject, so this is what it has to say:
Masculinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For me personally, I have great pride, respect, and aduration of a man who takes care and loves his family. For me, that's more manly than anything else. I just asked a female friend of mine, and she had some trouble answering. She did say some interesting things in how she sees a manly man: jeans, muscle definition, rugged , strong, cuddly bear

And just to say again, I'm not saying men should have those qualities, that women shouldn't, etc. I definitely support alternate views and equality.

[JTomo170]

Ladies and Gentlemen I give you proof of american manliness. He just does it with a little flair!



Lets no forget this guy!

[goalerjones]

the waiter/waitress statement (meaning there are many people who came to Hollywood to be actors who adhere to the media/supermodel physical standards) was made in response to your initial statement:

Originally Posted by darthlampe
...The media is not the standard for America. Just look at the average American's weight(Of male and female) then look at all those role models. Hollywood isn't real, never forget that.

Originally Posted by darthlampe

Not sure what you mean...

[goalerjones]

The Templates:

Barbie= femininity
GI Joe= masculinity

Now, the society you're in defines it from there.

If feminine means emotional, sensative, nuturing, and a mother then you've got our traditonal view of what it means to be a woman in America in the 1900's.

If masculine means emotionally detached, powerful, assertive and a soldier, then you've got the 1900's views of the American male.

pos+ definate goals to shoot for, specific roles in society, everyone "knows their place".

neg- anyone who falls outside of the traditonally held views of these "norms" are either ignored, or at worst ostracized for their views.

but the inevitable problems- men cannot be sensative, and women cannot solve their own problems.

I times past, my job as a male nurse fell under the category of homophobia, and my wife's job as a computer tech would have labelled her a "dike".

There have been massive upheavals on both side of the fences (feminism and emasculization), but IMO going too far to the one side or the other doesn't solve the problem.

[Foxton]

Originally Posted by goalerjones

The Templates:

Barbie= femininity
GI Joe= masculinity

Templates, maybe. But it's how a child plays with said toys that make them feminine or masculine.

[EvilPepe]

Originally Posted by Foxton

Templates, maybe. But it's how a child plays with said toys that make them feminine or masculine.

Would it be more feminine if a child were to have General Eagle and King Cobra sit down to a cup of tea together?

[sloth2946]

Originally Posted by Foxton

Templates, maybe. But it's how a child plays with said toys that make them feminine or masculine.

Exactly. Which is why when a Barbie entered our house, you could rest assured that she ended up bent over the HISS tank with Storm Shadow giving her the Snake-Eye.

[Foxton]

Originally Posted by EvilPepe

Would it be more feminine if a child were to have General Eagle and King Cobra sit down to a cup of tea together?

Stereotypically of course you could say that. But looking at it another way perhaps the child had been given tea sets and exposed to a lot of tea parties and such. So the thought of having them do much beyond in what would be a stereotypical GI joe fashion wouldn't factor in.

Originally Posted by sloth2946

Exactly. Which is why when a Barbie entered our house, you could rest assured that she ended up bent over the HISS tank with Storm Shadow giving her the Snake-Eye.

Thanks for the laugh.

[EvilPepe]

Originally Posted by Foxton

Stereotypically of course you could say that. But looking at it another way perhaps the child had been given tea sets and exposed to a lot of tea parties and such. So the thought of having them do much beyond in what would be a stereotypical GI joe fashion wouldn't factor in.

I was more or less kidding - Sloth found the better joke.

That being said, I was looking at it more from the perspective that General Hawk and King Cobra would try and cooperate, settle things peacefully, over tea, rather than beating the crap out of each other.

[Foxton]

Originally Posted by EvilPepe

I was more or less kidding - Sloth found the better joke.

That being said, I was looking at it more from the perspective that General Hawk and King Cobra would try and cooperate, settle things peacefully, over tea, rather than beating the crap out of each other.

No no I got it, mainly because I basically lived that kind of thing.

[RyJ Maduro]

Originally Posted by EvilPepe

Would it be more feminine if a child were to have General Eagle and King Cobra sit down to a cup of tea together?

What if the topic of discussion at the tea party was the planned genocide of the Bratz dolls? Sort of like a plastic Wannsee conference?