Success in Iraq?

[M-Dub]

I meant it as more as for us to just worry about us.

[Timberwoof]

I think it's perfectly fine to offer and receive mutual aid in times of natural disaster. For instance, a couple of years ago there were some bad floods in Germany. Poland sort of shyly and tentatively asked whether they could send some of their army units to help out ... and Germany sort of embarrassedly and gratefully said, yes, please. In a way, that disaster did more to help mend Polish-German relations after WWII than all the politicians making speeches.

Cuba has some of the best medical schools in the Caribbean; they regularly send doctors to hurricane-blasted places in South America. And they're really good at dealing with that sort of disaster ... and making friends with other countries in the area. The US's reaction when Cuba offered to help after Katrina was a little bit hysterical, I thought. We demand your help--but not yours! It was sort of like Iran refusing US aid after their big earthquake a couple of years back.

[Holy the Goalie]

Originally Posted by Timberwoof

Germany did welcome the Allied soldiers, and Germany did have a fairly long though periodically interrupted tradition of a liberal-democratic[1] order of society. Although there were Catholic and Protestant Germans, they hadn't fought over that issue since the Thirty Years War. Germans have a pretty strong work ethic: in 1949, Konrad Adenauer declared a currency reform and launched the Economic Miracle. So I deny that it took years of US military involvement in Germany after the war to get the society and economy going again. And I deny that the situations of Germany and Iraq are similar enough that you can draw any conclusions about one from the other.

Somebody else who knows more about Japan than I do will have to write the post about how the comparison fails with that country as well.

[1] by which I do not mean damn-Liberal or Democrat

Absolutely. And I didn't mean to say that the situation in post-war Germany was at all similar to post-war(?) Iraq. All I was saying is that wars don't happen, and resolution doesn't occur, overnight, and I think some people are expecting that.

I think we got spoiled by Gulf War I, since it started and ended in no time at all.

[bbnmcas]

I am writing this FROM Iraq. This is my second tour in Iraq. I was here for 5 months my first time and I've been here 2 months with 10 to go. I'm going to say what I think and I don't care if you believe me or think I'm trying to create a sense of fear. Here are my thoughts. There are "bad guys" over here that care about one thing and one thing only, making the entire WORLD Muslim. And, not just Muslim, EXTREME Muslim! That means YOU, sitting there reading this. There is a Muslim preacher, called and Imam, in London that said all NON-Muslims deserve to be raped and murdered! FOXNews.com - Report: Non-Muslims Deserve to Be Punished - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News Some citizens in the U.S. don’t understand the seriousness of the situation. The radical Muslim extremists don’t want to talk about it or negotiate. The Muslim radicals think and say, “you become Muslim, or I kill you”. THAT IS IT. No discussions, no time of attack or common military uniform to predict an attack. Only, “become Muslim, or expect to die”. If the population of the U.S. doesn’t wake up to see the shift in the world’s fastest growing religion, you too may soon be persuaded to become Muslim to avoid death. I hear the people back home saying they support the troops, but do they really? If they are not taking the time to see what improvements are being made and they believe everything they see and hear on T.V. and what they read in the papers, then they don’t support the troops. If you support the troops, then invite a service member on your talk shows and morning shows and find out what is actually happening. Find out facts. For example, how many elementary schools were operating under Saddam and how many are operating today? How many citizens had access to water, electricity, and basic healthcare 6 years ago, and how many have access today? Success will occur when we see the Iraqi Army and Iraqi Police provide the security necessary to protect their own citizens. Unfortunatly, corruption is the only way of life the population of Iraq understands. That's the way Saddam lead his government, that's the way his followers want to live. Trying to instill integrity, honesty, duty, loyalty, and pride for one's country is not easy to teach in 5 years. As much as everyone thinks McCain is going to be another Bush, it's not possible. The military cannot withstand a long, drawn-out conflict without the draft. And let's not forget the other conflict in Afghanistan. The "Success" the U.S. is going for is Number 5 on your list, getting Sunnis and Shias to work together to protect their people and become a nation of free citizens. Will that happen, it's only a matter of time until we find out.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by bbnmcas

The military cannot withstand a long, drawn-out conflict without the draft.

I agree.

Institute a draft and see how long it takes for us to develop an exit plan.................

[bbnmcas]

Originally Posted by Thumper

I agree.

Institute a draft and see how long it takes for us to develop an exit plan.................

That's one way of looking at it.

One thing McCain does not like to talk about is that his youngest son is an Active Duty Service Member that just completed a tour over here. McCain has a much deeper connection with sending troops into conflict than either of the other two will ever have.

[M-Dub]

I truely dont like any of the canidates this time around.. kinda like a nope nope ehhh situation..

[Flagg3139]

Originally Posted by Timberwoof

Yep, there's a US flag in Iraq, but it's not gonna stay. Remember Red Dawn.

The largest US embassy in the world is being constructed in Iraq.

Don't kid yourself, the US flag will be in that country forever.

[axeslinger]

First, bbnmcas, thank you for your service.

Second, don't expect very many sane, cogent replies. It's not possible to do that when one is convinced that "Bush lied", or "my gas is $3.XX a gallon" or "it's their problem" or any of the other ad nauseum excuses that so many have.

You know, because the threat is "overstated" and "exaggerated". The more than 1 million radical muslims in the world don't REALLY want us dead. After all, Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton and John Kerry and all the rest of the anti-war left would never try to play politics with something as important as National Security, right?

Oh and by the way, in response to the original question...we leave when the Iraqi government is capable of protecting the Iraqi people from enemies foreign and domestic....you know, kind of like what we were told was the criteria all along! Some probably didn't hear that, though. It's hard to hear with your fingers in your ears, chanting "Bush lied".

[RyJ Maduro]

Originally Posted by Steve L

What will "success" in Iraq be? How will we know when we win?

Long term stability, with a relatively friendly and democratic Iraqi regime which can act as an ally in GWOT. There will not be a Waterloo or Appomattox for al-Qaeda; slowly but surely we will witness lower casualty rates amongst Coalition forces and Iraqi civilians, a reduction in IED attacks, a return to normalcy. When we achieve our objectives, the results will be tangible in the form of pie charts and statistics as opposed to peace treaties.

Will it be killing all the Sunnis and letting the Shiites take over? (helping Iran)

Will it be killing all the Shiites and letting the Sunnis take over?

Will it be killing all the Muslims in Iraq? (angering the rest of the islamic population worldwide and potentially leading to worldwide conflict)

Of course not.

Will it be getting the Sunnis and Shiites to set aside their differences and living peacefully together? (naive thinking and less likely to happen than something like the Palestinians and Israelies settling their differences)

Not as naive as you'd think, and a far more attainable goal than peace in Israel. While there is a great deal of animosity between the Sunnis and Shia, and there are definitely radical elements on both sides, the vitriol pales in comparison with the genocidal fanaticism and anti-Semitism which permeates even the so-called mainstream "Palestinian" mindset.

There's a very good blog post of lessons learned in Iraq, from an officer with 1st Cav. A brief but very insightful article which is a worthwhile read.
Alexander the Average: Iraq Lessons Learned vs the Mainstream Media

Said the MSM was making a big, and wrong, deal out of the religious sects. Said Iraqis are incredibly nationalistic. They are Iraqis first and then say they are Muslim but the Shi'a - Sunni thing is just not that big a deal to them.

bbnmcas, thank you very much for your first-hand insight. I'll be sending you a PM soon, I've got some questions for you. Stay safe.

[habs-fan]

So axe, we leave when the condition are back to what they were before we got there?

Iraq was no a major player in the extrmist radical Islam game. Saddam saw to that. They provided funding to terrorist organizations. They paid off Palestinian homicide bombers. But they were nowhere near the threat posed by Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. If we were serious about fighting Islamist terror, that's where we'd be.

You can send a message without pissing off an entire country. Look what happened with Qadaffi. a couple of well placed cruise missiles quieted him down quite a bit.

The US, indeed the world, should be all over Syria and Saudi right now.

You want to dend a strong message that we will not tolerate Islamist terrorism? stop criticizing Israel for trying to stop the daily rocket attacks. Go after Hamas and Hezbollah.

Next time there is an Islamic terrorist attack anywhere in the world, plant a cruise missile 100 miles from Mecca. Walk it in by 10 miles after every other attack.

I have a lot of dear friends who are Muslim. We get along great. I also have friends and family who live under the constant threat in Israel.

Iraq was a mistake. We need to deal with it quick. What happens when Iran starts to seriously **** disturb? We don't have the resources to slap them down anymore.

[biguglygoalie]

Originally Posted by Goaliedad

How is a draft going to help?

when it affects everybody, everybody will be involved in the process. easy to say go to war and sacrifice when your life doesnt change at all. if there was a draft do you think this mess would have even taken place?

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by Goaliedad

How is a draft going to help?

Depends on what you mean by 'help'.

The war in Iraq (and any other extremely unpopular war) can only be fought with an all volunteer army.

As soon as a draft is implemented, the average American becomes more invested in the war and it's legitimacy.

Politicians would have to develop an exit strategy immediately following the implementation of a draft.

[RyJ Maduro]

Originally Posted by habs-fan

You want to dend a strong message that we will not tolerate Islamist terrorism? stop criticizing Israel for trying to stop the daily rocket attacks. Go after Hamas and Hezbollah.

Yes.

While I disagree on certain points, Habs-fan's post is an excellent example of how it is possible to criticize the strategy of the Iraq War and not sound like a naive isolationist.

I'm pleasantly surprised at the intelligent tone of this thread so far, let's keep it up.

[biguglygoalie]

Originally Posted by RyJ Maduro

Long term stability, with a relatively friendly and democratic Iraqi regime which can act as an ally in GWOT. There will not be a Waterloo or Appomattox for al-Qaeda; slowly but surely we will witness lower casualty rates amongst Coalition forces and Iraqi civilians, a reduction in IED attacks, a return to normalcy. When we achieve our objectives, the results will be tangible in the form of pie charts and statistics as opposed to peace treaties.

yes and it will rain daisy petals and happiness too... if those were the goals, how did we make things better by giving iran more influence in the region? if fighting terrorrism was the objective why did we sidestep afghanistan? we sure showed those iraqis for what the saudis did...