Something about Religion (come on everbody express your opinion!!!)

[Swedish goalie]

Originally Posted by Philip Maltese

This is a good topic. Interesting to see where people fall on this issue.

I have my opinions and they're strong ones, but I tend to lean toward the logical anyway.

Here's a person's POV I can respect ....

George Carlin
On Religion

ObjectiveThought.com
12-23-5



When it comes to bull****, big-time, major league bull****, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull**** story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull**** story. Holy ****!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is ****ed up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of **** you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever **** things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a ****. Doesn't give a ****, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a ****, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to **** that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and **** up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the **** bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't **** around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that ****sucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

~George Carlin

YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bull****.

Here is the standup when he says that

[RyJ Maduro]

Uggh... I go to up to New England for the weekend, and you godless heathens descend futher into the pit than ever.

[Threeleggedyoyo]

Originally Posted by moving target

Christianity:

The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat fruit from a magical tree...

Hockey goaltending:

The masochistic practice of strapping sharpened blades onto ones' feet, trying to remain mobile in environments clearly outside the design of human physiology, and purposefully hurling oneself in front of hardened projectiles moving in excess of 70 miles per hour with little or no regard to personal safety, while also knowingly subjecting oneself to jeering crowds and routine spearing and collisions, all to keep a tiny piece of rubber from touching a mesh of nylon...

You can do it with anything.

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the **** bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

This comes from a misconception of prayer.

Prayer is not to change the will of God at all. It's to ask for blessings He's already willing to grant, but must be asked for.

For example, ever ask your parents for something? Maybe to pass the salt? I wouldn't say that nullified their plans if they said yes. But if you hadn't asked, they wouldn't have given it to you, even if they knew you wanted it.

I can understand the logic of some of this fellow's ideas, but can you see how angry and condescending he sounds? I don't think that's a very good model to hold up, and if you find that tone resonating personally, you might wish to check your attitude.

~Brent

[Courage1]

I usually try and stay out of these threads, but this is a really good post and I felt compelled to engage this as dialog....

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

And you misunderstand religion.

Religion is the science of "why." It is not designed to directly tell us how things happen. It's designed to teach us why.

I cant be on board with this statement. I've spent years of my life studying both of these subjects (religion and science) and I always felt like I was drawn to both subjects because they were two different ways to try and understand why things are the way that they are. Its the how that is different for me. Both have their own methodology though, which are very different, as are the goals.

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

If you want to find evidence of God's existence before meeting Him after this life, those are the places to start looking.
........
the only way to really prepare for that involves loving His principals in our heart of hearts - in other words, obeying them when He's not around. This is the only way we'll ever be comfortable around Him. If you want to know if He's there, live His principals and see for yourself if they produce the promised results
.........

This is where things get interesting for me. I had a great conversation with a board member about his awakening, and it really highlighted the difference in approach. Scientific method draws on taking universally available data and creating conclusions that hopefully would apply to all people (Show me and I will believe its true). Religion relies on a person to believe and "walk the walk" and the truth will be revealed to you when you are ready.

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

He's put the burden of proof on each of us individuals. Our character is on trial, not His existence.

This is an extremely eloquent way to put this, but it is tough to see it as a universal truth. This is where my own frustrations come into play. After years of studying theology, I have to admit that God hasn't said **** to me It is a very personal thing to have that relationship with whatever power you are seeking. There is no way to explain a personal bond, this is (in my opinion) the shortcoming of trying to understand things universally through religion. You feel it or you don't.

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

There's plenty of things each of us believe in that cannot be proven or disproven.

This is the shortcoming of science, some things cant be proven and that does not make them less visible or true.......

Originally Posted by Threeleggedyoyo

*On a side note, anyone who chooses to seek God will have to be careful to find a way to distinguish between the words of men and the words of God, as there are conflicting religious traditions that can't all be true, and following incorrect principals will lead to unsatisfactory results.

This is a wonderful insight, many harsh things have been done in the name of religion by confusing these two very different things.....

Thanks for the post Three, you continue to be one of the most interesting/thoughtful posters here........

[punisher]

Originally Posted by hammbone

If Passmore was a loving deity, he'd help Matt keep his job and protect him from his crazy wife.

it's well known that religious relics have powers you should not mess with.
The hand of Passmore has touched Matt, it's like the apple and the temptation.
He has touched it like eve took the apple. No good can come from it.
Best thing that Matt can do is giving it to an atheist.

Pun.

And as far as religion goes i try not to let it rule my life to much.
Rather then living by a book i live by being good, no need to have a rulebook per se

and if all fails and i do get caught in a debate it's wiser to trust people like Lars (a member here) who actually has a master in theology but his advice is to not get involved LOL
so there you have it.

pun.

2 quotes to end.

Faith is much better than belief. Belief is when someone else does the thinking.
R. Buckminster Fuller

and

God is a verb, not a noun proper or improper.
R. Buckminster Fuller

[Quart of Beer]

Interesting to have this discussion, while at the same time, the Hadron Collider is about to go on line. Will the discoveries from the world's largest particle accelerator, lead to a better understanding of the elemental forces of our existence, the planet we live on, and the huge universe we live in. Can the very beginnings of the universe actually be recreated and explained. Billions of years before the primordial ooze....

[Stryker908]

Originally Posted by Quart of Beer

Interesting to have this discussion, while at the same time, the Hadron Collider is about to go on line. Will the discoveries from the world's largest particle accelerator, lead to a better understanding of the elemental forces of our existence, the planet we live on, and the huge universe we live in. Can the very beginnings of the universe actually be recreated and explained. Billions of years before the primordial ooze....

Anti-Matter? Something from nothing? Let there be light? Hmmmm

Science and Theology combined?

[Goaliedad]

Flying Spagetti Monster...Anyone?...Anyone...?

[cdnredraider]

Originally Posted by Goaliedad

Flying Spagetti Monster...Anyone?...Anyone...?

hmmm. No one has mentioned that one before.........

[cdnredraider]

Originally Posted by Quart of Beer

Interesting to have this discussion, while at the same time, the Hadron Collider is about to go on line. Will the discoveries from the world's largest particle accelerator, lead to a better understanding of the elemental forces of our existence, the planet we live on, and the huge universe we live in. Can the very beginnings of the universe actually be recreated and explained. Billions of years before the primordial ooze....

It will be really cool to see what it does. According to a few physicists, they expect to create a black hole and knock us from existance.

However, as far as the religion/science debate, it is meaningless. Scientist will state that is reveals more stuff to prove God doesn't exist. On the other hand, all it will go to show, if you believe in a creator, is that man found more of the laws that God established when he created this place.

[Bones343]

Originally Posted by cdnredraider

Scientist will state that is reveals more stuff to prove God doesn't exist. On the other hand, all it will go to show, if you believe in a creator, is that man found more of the laws that God established when he created this place.

Which is of course why it is much easier to say what you just said because of the god clause right?

God did it.

There is your answer. All this science stuff that involves things like logic, reason, facts, you know, real stuff, it is just too complicated for me, so I'll just stick with the god clause.

What a waste of 13 years of schooling involving science stuff.



That is why I have a hard time listening to arguements about religion and science from religious god believing people, because regardless, their arguement generally starts out like it could be legit.....and then....it stops, and ends, with "because god did this or that". Period. They ignore whatever information is shown them, and refute it with the god clause. And thats it. It is like arguing with 3 billion Pewee Hermans.

[cdnredraider]

Originally Posted by Bones343

Which is of course why it is much easier to say what you just said because of the god clause right?

God did it.

There is your answer. All this science stuff that involves things like logic, reason, facts, you know, real stuff, it is just too complicated for me, so I'll just stick with the god clause.

What a waste of 13 years of schooling involving science stuff.



That is why I have a hard time listening to arguements about religion and science from religious god believing people, because regardless, their arguement generally starts out like it could be legit.....and then....it stops, and ends, with "because god did this or that". Period. They ignore whatever information is shown them, and refute it with the god clause. And thats it. It is like arguing with 3 billion Pewee Hermans.

Don't insult my school or education. I am damn sure not a waste of going on 19 years of school. Seeing as I graduated with highest honors with degrees in science fields, don't insult me by saying this stuff is all to complicated for me to understand.

I said nothing about ignoring the information. The information is great to know, but as far as any debate is concerned, it is no different than finding out about proton, neutrons, and electrons. Just because we find out another level of what makes up all the matter we see, it doesn't prove or disprove God. Thats what they are looking for in this Haldron Collider. They want to see if they can find smaller and smaller particles and figure out how they interact with each other. If they find out that electrons are made up of tiny widgets, thats great. Science learns how things work a little better, but it doesn't lessen the existence of God at all. After all, if God created the universe, that would include said widgets which make up the electrons.

Just because we find all these natural laws that govern how things operate. That doesn't lessen the importance of God. If anything, it means God made the universe and set up laws for it to run by and we are just figuring them out.

[Bones343]

Originally Posted by cdnredraider

Don't insult my school or education.

I said nothing about ignoring the information. Science learns how things work a little better, but it doesn't lessen the existence of God at all. After all, if God created the universe, that would include said widgets which make up the electrons.

Just because we find all these natural laws that govern how things operate. That doesn't lessen the importance of God. If anything, it means God made the universe and set up laws for it to run by and we are just figuring them out.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't speaking of you or your education. I was speaking sarcastically. Notice I used the first person....which generally implies speaking of ones self. It was a sarcastic paradox of sorts. I was really just refering to this statement you made which highlights many peoples views, and frankly, I'm not sure if you were stating that even as your view or if you were just throwing that out there.

" On the other hand, all it will go to show is that man found more of the laws that God established when he created this place."

This is similar to what people say all the time, and was what I was talking about.

[RyJ Maduro]

come on everbody express your opinion!!!

After finally having the opportunity to attend a traditional Latin Mass this weekend, I can say unequivocally that the Tridentine Rite is vastly superior to the Novus Ordo.


....okay, continue your monkey-to-man debate, you earth-worshipping heretic Darwinites.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by RyJ Maduro

After finally having the opportunity to attend a traditional Latin Mass this weekend, I can say unequivocally that the Tridentine Rite is vastly superior to the Novus Ordo.

That's funny considering that the Tridentine Rite contains numerous controversial passages regarding Judaism.

Further proof RyJ, that you have no clue what you are talking about, regardless of the subject....................