Have you ever thought about buying an Hybrid car?

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by cwarnar

I was considering a Prius as well, they get 48 mpg highway and 60 mpg city..

They don't really get that good of mileage. The EPA is revising their standards with regards to what mfrs are allowed to claim, as many of them were claiming mileage way over what anyone could realistically expect to see.

New ratings (from the Wired article I linked to earlier in this thread):



It's still good, but not as impressive as what we've been led to believe.

The Hybrid Hoax

Most cars and trucks don't achieve the gas mileage they advertise, according to Consumer Reports. But hybrids do a far worse job than conventional vehicles in meeting their Environmental Protection Agency fuel economy ratings, especially in city driving.

Hybrids, which typically claim to get 32 to 60 miles per gallon, ended up delivering an average of 19 miles per gallon less than their EPA ratings under real-world driving conditions (which reflect more stop-and-go traffic and Americans' penchant for heavy accelerating) according to a Consumer Reports investigation in October 2005.

For example, a 2004 Toyota Prius got 35 miles per gallon in city driving, off 42 percent from its EPA rating of 60 mpg. The 2003 Honda Civic averaged 26 mpg, off 46 percent from its advertised 48 mpg. And the Ford Escape small sport utility vehicle managed 22 mpg, falling 33 percent short of its 33 mpg rating.

"City traffic is supposed to be the hybrids' strong suit, but their shortfall amounted to a 40 percent deficit on average," Consumer Reports said.

The hybrid failed another real world test in 2004 when a USA Today reporter compared a Toyota Prius hybrid with a Volkswagen Jetta diesel, driving both between his home in Ann Arbor, Michigan and the Washington, D.C. area. Both should have made the 500-mile trip on one tank of gas.

"Jetta lived up to its one-tank billing," reporter David Kiley wrote. "Prius did not."

Kiley had to stop to refill the Prius, which ended up averaging 38 miles per gallon, compared with 44 miles per gallon for the Jetta (which met its fuel economy rating). And this occurred during spring weather without the extra drain on a hybrid battery caused by winter weather--which would have favored the diesel Jetta even more.

[Psychopomp]

Originally Posted by azdave

All wheel drive is another marketing ploy that I don't really understand. I know in MN. all wheel drive is very nice to have. Here in AZ. I checked out an R32 and it is all wheel drive, mpg sucked. Stated 18 and 22 but the salesman was upfront and said he gets about 16 in the city and never over 20 on the highway. Size of a GTI and gets SUV mileage. The Audi all wheel drive cars are the same plus you need to put in premium fuel.

Smart car only gets 38 mpg so the Minis, Toyotas, Mazdas are equal or better than. As far as Hybrids go the Prius gets the best ratings and battery costs are going to go down, not up as more and more people get these cars.

I don't really think most people don't need AWD... it's more of a 'performance' oriented thing. Even if you live in a snowy area, a set of good snow tires will help you get through the fluff a lot better than AWD. Especially for people who live in flat areas. If you have mountains (Colorado, Vermont, etc.) that's a different story.

The R32 AWD and the Audi Quattro system are actually a little different. The R32 has a Haldex developed AWD system which is what Volvo and Saab use. The power from the engine is distributed more evenly to the four wheels which drains efficiency more. The 280 hp VR6 in the R32 also likes to drink a lot of gas! The Audis use their in-house developed quattro which is probably one of the best systems for optimizing fuel economy because the power split is 90/10 between in most situations.

I'm not completely convinced on the hybrids yet either. I think someone making a decision would need to look critically at the way they drive and how they use their car.

Some manufacturers defintely over-advertise the fuel economy of their cars. My sister has a Chevy Equinox that hasn't touched it's advertised numbers. On the other hand, I've owned 2 VW's in the last 8 years, my first was a 2001 Jetta 1.8T and my current is a 2008 4dr GTI. In my experience VW underadvertises the power and fuel economy of their cars. My Jetta was advertised at 23/30 and I would average about 27 combined. My GTI was estimated 22/29 and right now I'm getting about 28-29 combined and around 32-33 for long highway trips. That's pretty good for a car that is as quick and powerful as the GTI.

[chakal]

The civic still has impressive results even with the new standards.

[soulpatch]

He also announced that GM has approved production of the Chevrolet Volt, a so-called plug-in hybrid vehicle that can run about 40 miles without any use of gasoline. The Volt will be built in GM's Hamtramck, Mich., plant and is due in showrooms by the end of 2010.

"We believe it's the biggest step yet in our industry's move away from its historic, nearly complete reliance upon petroleum to power vehicles," he said. "We believe the Volt is an important investment for the future of our company and our shareholders."

Ahead of the rollout of that new model, GM plans to increase production of some more fuel-efficient car models. It's adding a third shift at its Orion, Mich., plant to build more of the Chevy Malibu and Pontiac G6 models, as well as a third shift at a Lordstown, Ohio, plant that builds the compact Chevrolet Cobalt and Pontiac G5 models.

It also plans a more fuel efficient gasoline engine for its small car models that will get about 9 miles per gallon more than current GM engines in the segment.



from this article: GM to close truck plants, shift to fuel-efficient cars - Jun. 3, 2008




I was reading this and just thinking DUH.........No **** sherlock. Shame it takes a "crisis" like the one we are in now to start to make a transition. Plently of people would have bought the smaller cars or the volt and plently woulf have still bought the volt and such in the past couple of years. They could have made a huge turnaround in terms of sales had they been more forward thinking......


The fiance will be needing a new car sometime in the future and she will be getting another smaller sedan like a civic or such since she has the longer commute. I will continue to have a larger vehicle most likely. Perhaps another Xterra depending on gas prices.....

[cwarnar]

Originally Posted by Bryan

They don't really get that good of mileage. The EPA is revising their standards with regards to what mfrs are allowed to claim, as many of them were claiming mileage way over what anyone could realistically expect to see.

It totally depends on driving style and habits. I live in Rural Sask and 85-90% of my driving is highway. I am currently in a 1998 Nissan Altima, and it is rated at 23 combined by the EPA, and 28 mpg on highway alone. I am currently averaging around 30 mpg. With the right driving style and fuel saving mods you could easily get higher number than the EPA suggests:

Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

I would easily look at a Prius for the increased highway mpg, as it is difficult to find a fuel efficient car that is not a soup can on wheels.

[dreadlockgoalie]

Originally Posted by Bryan

They don't really get that good of mileage. The EPA is revising their standards with regards to what mfrs are allowed to claim, as many of them were claiming mileage way over what anyone could realistically expect to see.

New ratings (from the Wired article I linked to earlier in this thread):



It's still good, but not as impressive as what we've been led to believe.

The Hybrid Hoax

And this is precisely why a diesel makes more sense these days. Why they haven't started making diesel hybrid's is beyond me.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Psychopomp

In my experience VW underadvertises the power and fuel economy of their cars. My Jetta was advertised at 23/30 and I would average about 27 combined. My GTI was estimated 22/29 and right now I'm getting about 28-29 combined and around 32-33 for long highway trips. That's pretty good for a car that is as quick and powerful as the GTI.

I totally agree with that. My 2007 Jetta gets 35MPG in the city and it's rated for 28city/39hwy, and my 1991 Golf is rated to get 21city/26hwy and it gets close to 40MPG in the city .

Originally Posted by cwarnar

It totally depends on driving style and habits. I live in Rural Sask and 85-90% of my driving is highway. I am currently in a 1998 Nissan Altima, and it is rated at 23 combined by the EPA, and 28 mpg on highway alone. I am currently averaging around 30 mpg. With the right driving style and fuel saving mods you could easily get higher number than the EPA suggests:

You misunderstood: the mfrs were specifically exaggerating the MPG of hybrids. Read the article: Deisel Jetta got bang on, Prius got 42% less than advertised.

[RyJ Maduro]

I've considered it.

[cwarnar]

You misunderstood: the mfrs were specifically exaggerating the MPG of hybrids. Read the article: Deisel Jetta got bang on, Prius got 42% less than advertised.[/quote]

Gotcha, personally I would love to get into a Jetta or Golf TDI... 50 mpg easy... I did somewhere that VW is looking to introduce a diesel hybird:

Revealed: Volkswagen's 69.9-MPG Diesel Hybrid | Autopia from Wired.com

I would have problem snagging one of these...

EDIT - I lied:

Volkswagen Golf Turbo-Diesel Hybrid Too Expensive for Production : TreeHugger

[InsightGoalie]

Originally Posted by Psychopomp

The 280 hp VR6 in the R32 also likes to drink a lot of gas! The Audis use their in-house developed quattro which is probably one of the best systems for optimizing fuel economy because the power split is 90/10 between in most situations.

My 275hp 32Valve InTech 4.6L V8 in the 3900lb+ Lincoln gets better gas mileage than 16/20. I tend to get 18/24 and I'm a hell of a lot more comfortable...

As for going for ultimate fuel economy, VW Jetta/Golf TDI wins hands down. 50mpg and no ridiculous batteries to replace. Also, if you want to you can plunk down the money and add a WVO system and only run it on diesel long enough to warm up the vegetable oil. That would be the waste vegetable oil you got for free from a restaurant that was throwing it out...

Frybrid Vegetable Oil Fuel Systems

[kicksave27]

I was all set to get a prius. Then i found the scion xA. Doing the cost benefit ratio of a 16k gas only, vs a 26k hybrid. 90% of my driving is interstate, and most of the prius i see are flying by me at 10 over, and i bet I'm getting better mileage than a prius at 75mph lugging those batterys around. Just made more sense to buy the xA. Aside from the fiscal differences, I did alot of study on the clean air/water acts of the 70's in the major of civil & environmental engineering. I'd have a bigger issue with whats going to happen with that battery acid vs where's the CO2 going. What if "gasp" the global warming people are wrong, and in 20years we have all this battery acid to deal with. As pollutants go, battery acid, worse than CO2. I can live in hotter weather, i can't live with polluted water.

The plug in cars would also be a cost benefit ratio as well, figuring out the kwhr per mile would be more apples to oranges, but could be done. And the electricity you use will still have to be generated somehow, and like it or not over 90% of the US energy comes from burning things. Depending on the mileage for a volt, it may have a bigger carbon footprint than my xA due to the generation of the electricity. I'm hoping we build more nuclear plants really (yes radiation is bad, chernobyl) but it's basically non-polluting as long as we can find a safe lead lined storage facility for the spent fuel. no CO2 at all France seems to be doing ok with it, a majority of their power is nuclear.

So in review, get the most fuel efficient non-hybrid hatchback car for gear, and plant a tree in your yard. Or for you city dwellers perhaps a balcony plant of some sort. And for the love of God, recycle.

[RCS]

I used to get 53mpg in my CRX HF (it was a 1991 model, and had 126,000 miles on it). Was reasonably quick, handled well, and cost me $2,500 used. Hybrid? No, couldn't be. It got better (real) mileage.

My RSX (non-S) currently gets 30mpg around the city and 36-38 on the highway, and while it's not a speed demon, it's no slouch.

Hybrids are overrated.

When are the H-powered cars coming?

[Sprawl]

When i was buying my car in Sept 05 i looked very heavily towards the Hybrids.

my concept behind driving is, you get what you need, with a lil overhead for what you like, But without going over the top.

I was looking around, I wanted a hatchback, I wanted something affordable and something i can rely on


There were virtually NO options then. While they might have fith into the Hatchback, and reliability, the extra cost put them out of my budget entirely.

A 4 door civic hybrid was going to cost me more than my Pontiac Vibe.


Alternative Fuel methods need to be within the range of the largest consumer group before they are going to be the Norm. right now Hybrids are only markettable with their costs to the "middle to high" end of the car buying people. They'll do well right now with Yuppies, but not with the guy who needs a 15,000$ car

[killer]

This was in the July 2008 issue of Diesel Power.

Hybrid or Diesel?

Ah, that's the zillion-dollar question for our generation. The Sunday Times out of the UK put the two to the test, pitting a Toyota Prius against a BMW 520d. As the article put it, "It's classified by the American government as the 'most fuel efficient car sold in the U.S.', and this seal of official approval is reflected in a special status that the Prius and other hybrids enjoy over conventionally powered cars." The Prius gets similar treatment in London, which begs one question: Are transport and tax planners - here and in the U.S. - being fair to the people who drive conventional cars? The article's authors drove the Prius and BMW the same number of miles (545), resulting in one writer complaining, "For all my defensive driving, slippery bodywork, and hybrid technology, my average fuel consumption was 48.1 mpg. I'd lost to a Bimmer and I was disappointed; I'd never driven so slowly and carefully for so long in my life." The BMW? "For the journey as a whole, I had averaged more than 50 mpg."

[NHLAlum Target]

If you want to get savings out of it, buy a normal car with an efficient engine.

If you want to get green, buy a bike and ride it.

I am saving about 250 bucks a month biking to work (not including motorized vehicle maintenance that I would normally have to pay for, such as routine oil changes). Granted, a bunch of that is parking, as I was able to cancel my parking contract at the hospital, but the gas also adds up quickly.

Plus, the look on your co-worker's faces when you come strolling in to work in below zero weather after biking in is priceless.


Disclaimer: I am a lucky bastard. I have a multi-use trail in my backyard. It connects to the Midtown Greenway in Minneapolis, and there is an exit less than a block from the hospital where I work. I get to wear scrubs, so I only have to bring socks, a t-shirt, and underwear with me. I have a locked bike cage to park my bike in. I have showers and free towels. So, basically, I can get on a bike, ride on a flat trail a little over 10 miles (only crossing a few roads the whole way, and only one road with a light) to work, and that trail is often plowed in the winter before the roads in my neighborhood.